Tosh Taylor - The voices of New Brunswick writers are the heart of WordCraft, a podcast aimed at creating community through words. WordCraft is a creation of the Writers Federation of New Brunswick, a non-profit organization that helps New Brunswick writers to write, acquire skills, and showcase their talents to the world. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton, with technical production by Tosh Taylor. The WFNB acknowledges that the land on which we live, work, and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Woolastook and Mi'kmaq peoples. And we honor the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship. We acknowledge the support of the Canadian Council for the Arts.

Jenna Morton - Welcome to Word Craft. I'm your host, Jenna Morton. On this episode, we're focusing on the New Brunswick Writing Competition. We're going to meet two previous winners who are going to reflect on how their participation shaped their approach to writing, their confidence, and their sense of community. The New Brunswick Writing Competition began in 1985, and it's been held every year since, hosted by the Writers Federation of New Brunswick. Over the last four decades, thousands of dollars in cash prizes have been awarded, and numerous writers who've taken part have gone on to national and even international success in the writing world. The competition is open for submissions in eight categories, all for previously unpublished works by New Brunswick residents from January 1st to March 31st each year. The awards highlight novels, short stories, poems and poetry collections, books for young people, writing by youth, narrative nonfiction, and short film scripts. You can find all the details on the website, wfnb.ca/writing-competition. Coming up, we're going to hear from Teresa Wu, who won the 2024 Sherry Fitch Prize for Teen Writers. But first, my conversation with Thomas Chamberlain, author of Happenstance, that's publishing in the fall of 2025. He won honorable mention for the David Adams Richards Prize for Fiction in 2023, and then took second place in the category in 2024. I began our conversation by asking Thomas to share about his writing competition journey.

Thomas Chamberlain - My name is Thomas Chamberlain. I'm an aspiring writer, I guess. This is my first novel and my first go at writing, really. So, oh - writing like a novel, writing fiction. And I'm a school teacher, was a school teacher. I'm retired from the province of New Brunswick. And so that's sort of that. And this manuscript that we're going to talk about today in the process was written about 10 or 12 years ago. I wrote it then with when I was teaching school. From that point, it got some kind of positive, comments from staff members and just general people that read it. And so I didn't really have that kind of drive to publish it or to really to fix it up much. Actually, I was using a little bit of it to teach children how to write. So then it kind of sat around a couple of years ago, I guess about 2021, my current partner, Denise, I just met her at the time and she's a big, big reader and asked me about my reading habits. And I said, well, I don't read like you do, but you know, like a book a week or something. But I wrote one. So, she read it and was kind of impressed enough with it. We thought we should maybe enter it in the Writers’ Federation of Brunswick's annual book awards [NB Writing Competition for unpublished work]. So we took about six months and, you know, edited, fixed it up, corrected some spelling, kind of got it to where we thought it would be competition ready, although we had no idea what that really was, and sent it away. And so I mean, that was one thing that really helped the writing was we had a deadline to do that, like, to get it in. We set a goal of getting it into the competition. So it's like writing to a deadline in a way. So we got that in and this was in 2023. It won. It came back with Honorable Mention. So and I told When Denise and I have talked about that, of course, and I said, now you've opened up a pile of work because, we've got sort of a validation that we've got something here. So that was, a big thing about the contest was someone told you, like an impartial person said it was - there was something there. At that time, I was excited about Honorable Mention. I mean, there's no doubt about it. But I didn't really know what that really meant. So at that year, WordSpring was the Writers' Federation's annual get-together, was in Saint John, New Brunswick, which was convenient for me because I live in Quispam - Rothesay area. So I attended that. And that really kind of moved it forward because when I went there, I met, I mean, I met all kinds of authors. I met authors with, PhD authors. I met published authors. I met wannabe authors. I met amateur authors. I met authors that entered the contest, didn't enter the contest. I was, I didn't know there was, because I didn't know the quality of writing that was going on, and the authors that were in New Brunswick. So, and that I was, my work was, being mentioned along with theirs. So that was a big, a big moment in my mind and in my proceeding to write. And also at Wordspring, I mean, I just want to [attend] Wordspring. I didn't know anybody. and just sat down in the library and, at the beginning of it, ceremonies or whatever it was, I forget exactly at the time. And I sat next to two people randomly, John Hanson and Trent Pomeroy, who are two writers. And we were talking and I told them who I was and what I had done. And they were very interested. And sitting right there, the two of them asked, if they could read a piece of it. So, I had the manuscript with me and they read a little section of it. And, they were both very, they were impressed enough to say, this is a very nice piece of writing, the sections they read, and that I could write. So it was kind of like authors telling me I could write. And they, and John Hanson, he, said he would, if I wanted to, I mean, we talked for a while. He took like a chapter of it home with him. And because he lived right there in Saint John. And later, in a week later or two weeks later, we met uptown at a cafe somewhere, a bar. And he went through my work and really straightened some stuff out for me - and it's all because of WordSpring. If I never went, I wouldn't have met him. Also at Wordspring, I also joined a workshop, the Blue Pencil Cafe, I think it was called at the time. And that was run by Warren Redmond, Zev Bagel, I think is his author's name. Yeah. And he had, I submitted like a chapter of his work. And so he's your representative of Merlin Star Press, I think, or is involved with Merlin Star Press. And he helped me out a lot too. And from a very kind of condensed piece of writing, like a chapter, they show you your mistakes and your strengths. And it's true if you're doing it in the chapter, you're doing it all the way through the book. And I was. And good things and bad things. I mean, they're not just, this is bad, this is bad, this is bad. You know, this is strong, this is strong, this is weak, this can be better, you know, when you're doing this, you're doing that. And so that helped me.

Also, and then the biggest piece of advice I got, or maybe the most thoughtful piece of advice that I had to really think hard about, I guess, on my point of view was, and I think it was Trent Pomeroy that told me this, but it may not have been, but it was one of the three of them told me I needed a professional editor. And that's not a bad thing. Like that I was at a point in the writing that you're probably going to have, if you want to write to publish, if that's where you want to go with your thing, that's what you should do.

So that, I mean, I thought about that because now we're talking about money, like to do that. And so I thought about that for a while and I did. I found Lee Thompson from Galleon Press and he agreed to take it on. And I told him it had one Honourable Mention in the Writers Federation competition. Of course, he's very familiar with this. And so he said he'd take the whole manuscript. You know, he just didn't wouldn't take a piece because obviously it had structure. There had to be a story there. There had to be something there to work with. So that saved me $500 because he didn't have, he didn't do the, whatever you would call it, like the pre-read or the pre-evaluation. So, that was, a great thing. So, he took it on and he had it for, I don't know, however time they had it, I'm going to say six months or so, maybe shorter, maybe longer. It came back with, and I like this, I've told a lot of people, it came back with 1,500 punctuation, grammar, formatting, but just mistakes. They were just blatant mistakes and to be fixed up. And 150 creative suggestions. And now that was everything from “this verb’s not working right,” to “this dialogue sounds to Pollyanna, not original.” And the ending has to be redone. They suggested the ending be not redone in its content, but redone in its time frame. And they just wanted a different ending. So that was that. And I did it. Took me about three months to do all the edits they suggested and sent it back to him. And then he sent it back to me. And then he said to me, you should re-enter it in the contest. in the Bender Riders Federation contest. And he said this, “and it'll win.” And I said, how do you know it'll win? And he said, “oh, it'll win - if the judge can get past the trauma in the first, in the first paragraph, in the first chapters of it. But it's good enough to win.”

So, good. So, okay. So, well, I'm paying. I mean, I'm giving this advice. So I contacted the Writers Federation, Rhonda, and asked her if I could do that because it already had got Honourable Mention. And then she said, and, you know, yes, and she really wanted me to do it because part of the goals of the Federation is for you to get feedback from the federation, from the contest, make it better and resubmit it. So I did resubmit it, and it came second, the second year. So then I was confident enough that I had something that was submission ready. So then I started the submitting process. That's very difficult too, because every publisher wants something different. There's very little consistency when you go to do that. So I did that. I don't know how many I sent out. I'm going to say about a dozen to 15 of them.

Also too, I could back up a bit here. Like after that, I did attend WordSpring again. It was the month in that year. And I read there at open mic and accepted my award and met the authors again. And I got a request from Mr. Redmond, Warren and Merlin Press to submit the manuscript to them. So I did. So that was, you know, a direct result of the contest. I met some other people there, of course. So And another advice I got, and this was from the first WordSpring too, and this helped me out too quite a bit in my journey, is to join writers groups, to join a writers group. And I don't know if you knew there was a writers group. And to try to get a writers group that was at the level or process that I was at in my writing. So I did that, and I joined a writers’ group and one that was run by Amanda Evans from Partridge Island Publishing. And I joined that one and that's run out of the Write Cup Cafe, I guess. Now it is. So I did that and I also joined another in the writing community, Saint John Voices, and they read, they have open mics. once a month. So that gave me practice to read out loud. If I was going down this going to be published journey, you're going to have to read out loud to people. So that was a great thing. And I have done it four or five times. And I just read sections out of the book and learn to pace myself and, you know, get a little bit of critique on it, which is all positive. So from the submission process, though, I mean, it was, as every writer knows, it's rejection, rejection, rejection. But I did get like a couple of requests to submit the whole manuscript, which is a big step, you know, like, and this is all new to me too, which was a big step. But, and of course, when you do that, you get a little bit of feedback on why they are not taking it. So, I got some feedback on it, on that, you know, you agree with some of you don't. I was kind of, kind of given up on the idea in a way, because it is a lot of work submitting stuff. So then about a year after Galleon Press – Lee - contacted me through, through e-mail or something, I forget exactly how it was done and said he exact words like he really couldn't get that story out of his head. So they were interested in taking it on if I was. At that time, I still had it out to one of the publishers, which I forget which one it was, still had it. And I think maybe it was Breakwater. It doesn't matter who that was, but it was out to someone. And I said, well, I have to kind of wait, you know, because they…but it was rejected, which is okay. So he took it on and that's sort of how it developed. So now, I've worked with him and, when I signed a contract and when I signed a contract, I got advice from the Writers Federation again. I called up, I think it was Rhonda and told her this is where I'm going, but I don't really know what I'm looking at here or and they sent me some stuff and that helped me out. It's great. Like winning in the contest was important because in a way, not in a way, because it, because then I got into the community, the writing community. And I think really that's the Writers’ Federation of NB, that's what you have to do. You need, if you're writing to publish, If that's your goal, and there's all kinds of goals for writing, you need to try to find someone that's going to give you sincere advice and critiques of your writing. And they don't usually come from your best friend, your girlfriend, your partner. They come from third parties and writers that have read a lot of writing. That was the importance of what winning for me is it forced me in, well, didn't force me, but it made me go to or say to join that, to join the community. So that's what I did. And I've had great feedback from people and, you know, even the authors that I was competing against, because I've met them and some of them are established authors, they're very supportive. I'm just a guy in the basement that wrote a story. Like, I don't have a degree in English. I don't have a big background in writing. I'm just a person that had a goal to write it, to make up a story and write one. And I did it. They, the other writers, no matter what skill level or background they have, never seem to…They don't seem to be nobody was offended by that or, they were all very positive. I've never I've never received any kind of negative things from anybody in the writing community on trying to be successful because it is hard to get published. And I know that now, you know, like you go to a bookstore and look at all the books and say, holy Jesus, can't be that difficult. Well, it is! it is because it's so competitive, and there's just so much stuff out there. So that's sort of my story about my journey through the last three or four years.

Jenna Morton - I love the sense of both community and confidence that come out of the award journey, right? It's not even necessarily winning that makes the difference. It's participating in the event.

Thomas Chamberlain - Absolutely. Yes, participation. So it's your decision, mine, because if I never went to Wordspring, if I just earned an Honourable Mention and stayed in my basement, the story would not have advanced. It had to be seen by more, because the judge doesn't really tell you anything. They tell you about why they liked it and why it kind of like why one, but they don't tell you that part of it is pretty flat, like this has to be fixed. That should be corrected. This is, they basically talk about your strengths, like. what was good about it, which is good, but you need to know what is not so good about it or what has to be improved, I guess, as well.

Jenna Morton - What do you think are the next steps for you now that this novel is kind of, it's about to be launched, it's going to be out there in the world. What do you see as the next step in your writing journey after the hubbub that will come with the launch, obviously.

Thomas Chamberlain - Well, I'm going to try to enjoy that. for as long as I can. At this level of publishing and publish, a lot of the local publisher authors will tell you this, I have to learn how to market the book a bit. So that's sort of what I'm kind of concentrating on now. So, you know, I'm trying to figure out like, how am I going to try to, because, you know, the small publishers in New Brunswick, the regional publishers are, they are who they are. They're trying to do the best they can. And, I give full credit to Galleon Press for taking a risk on this thing. Because if you know anything about the manuscript, it's not a fluffy book. It's a very serious book about a very serious topic. So, yeah, so for me, it'll be trying to market the book. I have kind of another idea in my head. I don't think the next one will take 10 years. where to go: I've written a couple of short stories and kind of a sense of humor. I tried to dethrone Trent Pomeroy on his run of, and I know you know who he is on his run of short stories because he can write them and they're good, but I couldn't do it. And I was, I met him the other day and I told him that, was my goal. But anyway, that's it. And you know, in my journey of creativity, this is the biggest one for me, is to be able to, in literary fiction, to make something absolutely up - 50,000 words, create a character, the storyline. And I basically just hope to enjoy it for a while, maybe get started another one in the new year, and hopefully I can probably get it done in six to 8 months. The draft won't take me long. It's step one of almost step 50. or step 100. So, but it is maybe the most enjoyable first step was when you hit, done. So that's sort of it, I guess.

Jenna Morton - Fantastic. Well, we'll give you a little bit of a taste of your marketing journey. Tell us a little bit, give us, you know, the back cover blurb. What's the story about? What title should people be looking for on the shelves? And who do you think will enjoy reading it?

Thomas Chamberlain - Well, okay. The book, the title is Happenstance, and that's the title. So we've agreed on the title. The book is about a young girl. She's an incest survivor, and it follows her through her journey on the last planned 3 days of her life. So the book is a very serious, it's about a very serious topic. And she journeys through these three days with her two friends. And she has a list of things that she wants to accomplish. And things, because of the name of the book, Happenstance, things keep getting in the way of this plan, like school is canceled or postponed because of a storm. It moves forward. And although the protagonist in the book is only 15 or 16 years old, I think the book will resonate more with readers that are a little bit older. And most of the feedback I've got from writers, and from Lee and publishers is how is the depth, the strength of the protagonist, the character of how well she's developed, and how believable her journey is. So that's sort of what it, that's what it's about. There's no fluff in the book.

Jenna Morton - There's room for all kinds of things, and certainly writing that sparks conversations is certainly important to have out in the world, so.

Thomas Chamberlain - Yeah, yes. And Gallium Press, is that kind of publisher. They're on the edge of things and good for him because, and good for them. They, he will take topics and he advertises that as well. That's part of his business plan. He will take good writing. I mean, I mean, in my journey of getting it published, I mean, I mean, I've got feedback from publishers and they won't, the topic is too, you know, it's not, it's not their cup of tea. I hope it takes off. I hope it has its successes. I hope it gets read. I hope the critics, you know, they might enjoy it on just how I got into the mind of a 14-year-old kid.

Jenna Morton - Well, fantastic. Thank you so much for taking some time to share your writing journey with us.

Thomas Chamberlain - Good. It was a pleasure. Anytime.

Jenna Morton - Thank you, Thomas. Thomas Chamberlain is the author of Happenstance, which is being published in the fall of 2025 by Galleon. Next in our conversation about the New Brunswick Writing Competition, we're going to meet Teresa Wu. She won the 2024 Sherry Fitch Prize for Teen Writers. Welcome to WordCraft, Teresa.

Teresa Wu - Thank you. Thank you so much, Jenna.

Jenna Morton - I'm really excited to hear more about your writing journey, and I'd love if you'd start a little bit by telling us about the story that won you the award.

Teresa Wu - Okay, so I believe I wrote this story when I was in grade 11, and originally it was actually for an English class because my teacher wanted us to submit stories for writing competitions. And I was reading a lot of poetry at the time, so I was wondering how I could incorporate poetry into my writing, and I found it kind of silly if I just added a rhyming man in it, but it would be really awkward if, there's just some random guy in the story that started rhyming. So I kind of built the story around that idea instead of something that's like more profound as other people thought when I was talking to them. So I wanted to have somebody that's kind of like weird, odd, and just rhymes for no reason. So then I thought, okay, what if I made it a little bit darker, if I had like a darker twist to it? So then I kind of combined the theme of perfectionism with this idea of this weird rhyming man. And I kind of made him like a plastic surgeon or a taxidermist, like kind of in between the two we don't know. And that's kind of my idea is to just write in between the lines and let the reader themselves discover the story or interpret it in the way that they want to.

Jenna Morton - I love that. That's very ambitious and also very fun.

Teresa Wu - Yes, I really enjoy the writing process.

Jenna Morton - You did this as an assignment, but it wasn't something where, you know, you had a lot of leeway to decide how you were going to do this. do you find that you like that process of having a little bit of a prompt, or do you prefer just to be completely open?

Teresa Wu - Well, we wrote this for like a short story contest, so there was no specific prompt. But I really like it when it's like open for my own interpretation. Like as long as you give me some room for my interpretation and what I want to add to the story, I'm fine, like prompt or no prompt. Why I mentioned that it was a writing competition for English class is that I kind of wanted to thank my English teacher for bringing me the opportunity to join writing competitions and kind of discover that, oh, I could write competitively because before it was more of a niche hobby type of thing that I would do by myself and… As a young writer, I feel like there's a lot of a cringe factor to your writing. Like, oh, you write, and then you read your writing, and you're like, oh, that's kind of cringey. That's not so good. I should just keep this to myself. And when we were actually talking about the assignment, everybody was kind of criticizing their own writing in a way. And they're like, oh, mine is so bad. Like, I finished this in one day. I don't feel good about it. And it was almost like this culture that, oh, I should join them in critiquing my own writing. So I literally said, oh, yeah, I just wrote about some rhyming guy and kind of like underplayed the whole importance of writing. And looking back, I don't really like that because I feel like writing means a lot to me. And this competition really helped me discover that like you reading your writing is one thing, but when other people also enjoys your writing, it gives you a lot of validation that I wasn't expecting. And from there on, I kind of blossomed into more of an actual writer and feeling more confident and free to share my writing with the world. Yeah.

Jenna Morton - I love that. I think a lot of people will resonate with that idea of thinking what they've done isn't good enough or they should downplay how important it really is to them because other people are doing that. And if we all do that, then you just have a room full of people who are actually really excited and proud of their work maybe and aren't sharing it openly. So I'm so glad that you brought that up and you shared that part of it. Did you have the opportunity to share that kind of reflection with your classmates or, now that you're a little bit, a couple years removed from being in high school, how do you kind of share that with people around you now?

Teresa Wu - I guess I'm like a lot more proud of it now, especially as a science major now. Like my introduction would be like, oh yeah, like I'm in science, but I have a passion for writing. And that would be like one of the first things that I bring up. And that would be a conversation starter because A lot of the times people will be like, what are you doing in science if you feel like you're a lot more talented in writing? But I feel like those two are like not really opposites, like they're the same side, like different sides of the same coin to me. So I guess that's something that a lot of people don't understand, but it's… Both aspects of science and writing are equally important to me, and they complement each other in ways that many people don't realize. So I feel like now it's just I'm confident to say that, yeah, I like both. I don't have to pick one, and that's completely okay.

Jenna Morton - How are you making both of those things work in your life right now?

Teresa Wu - So I feel like writing is really free and self-expressive. And me, I feel like for most writers, we're kind of born to, we have something that we must spill. We have something that we want to bring to the world. And, you know, even other artists, whether you want to do that through song, poetry, short story, like whatsoever, there's just this feeling that you want to bring something out. And that's what differentiates like a writer and a non-writer, or maybe like everybody can be a writer. And I think that is like the writer aspect and the science aspect is like the curiosity to discover. So like writing is like what brings this thing, this emotion, those thoughts into words. And science is more like curiosity. It's like, how does this work? How can I do better? And they complement each other because science gives me like some ideas and writing can bring some of those curiosities into form, into life. And for example, literally yesterday I was in physics class, and we were reviewing the concept of like energy. And then the prof was like, energy is never destroyed. It's only transformed into another shape, into another form of energy. And I was like, wow, that's so poetic. And literally in my notes, it was like, add this to poetry thoughts or something. Like, they go together really well. And I feel like a lot of my writing, I add aspects of both.

Jenna Morton - That's fantastic. Are you finding time for writing within your university studies or are you keeping it more as your hobby outlet side of things?

Teresa Wu - I feel like writing for me personally has always been the outlet because it's like a work-life balance type of thing and writing is more life than work, thankfully, because I think writing is really enjoyable. So that's also why I don't have to deal with writer's block that much, because I just write whenever I feel the need to instead of like, oh, I have to get this done. I'm not really on any deadlines. And I feel like that's when my best work comes out is when I'm not feeling pressured to do so. yeah, that's kind of how I balance it.

Jenna Morton - Getting back to the idea of entering a competition, can you talk a little bit about the feeling of that? Because for some people that would be a very, very terrifying idea, especially as a teenager, that they were going to put their words out there for someone else to look at.

Teresa Wu - I think one thing that my first impression of the Sherry Fitch contest was that it was completely free. That really caught me off guard because I searched up a lot of writing competitions beforehand and a lot of them had like fees and with good reason, like people need to get paid. But the fact that people would like go out of their way to make the contest free and more accessible for teens to submit their writing, like that was something that really hit me. I was like, wow, people actually want to hear the words and stories of young writers. And I kind of went into the competition with this mindset that, whoever is judging this competition, they care. And that took a lot of the pressure off my shoulders. And I just kind of was able to enjoy more and think less about like, it's just a competition. Like, I just write a story and then I submit it to the competition. Like, the story is actually just for me. It's not for the competition. And whether the judge likes it or not, that's like their problem. Obviously, I was very happy that I won and that they loved my story. But I think it just helps to think that this competition is for you and not for the judges.

Jenna Morton - I love that. What else would you want, if there's a high schooler listening to this right now or a middle schooler, because the competition for this particular award, it's open from ages 13 to 18. So if there's someone in that age range listening or an adult who has someone in their life that age listening, what would you like them to know about the competition?

Teresa Wu - I would say that it's really, it's really nice that the little community of writers holds this like little after party for the winners where you get to go and you get to like read a little bit of your story on stage and it's just a super friendly environment. It's like my first time going to something that has like very centered on writing and meeting other people that were, that was like me that really loved writing because in high school, most people that I've met see writing as like a chore, as like homework from class. So it was really nice to meet other people who actually had like a strong passion for it. And also like the competition in general, like I said, it's very accessible, so you don't really have to worry about money, cost, or time, really. You just like put in as much effort as you want, submit whatever you want to, and then the rest is just like out of your hands. You just like relax and hear back or yeah, it's just, it's really chill. Like there's not a lot to it, not too much pressure. And that's what I like about it. And this and other competitions as well. Like there's a lot more available to you than you think if you just do a Google search or whatever. And this was like the competition that kind of opened my world to writing. So I'm super grateful for the Sheree Fitch contest because then after, I submitted my work to other places and then I got to go on trips and other poetry conferences across the country, which was really cool.

Jenna Morton - I was just going to ask, what are you working on? What have you worked on since then and what are you working on now that you might like to share about?

Teresa Wu - So after that, in grade 12, my grad year, I submitted a poem that I wrote to my mom to Poetry and Voice, which is also a Canadian poetry association. And I submitted it for Future Verse, which is kind of like this poetry summit that they, it's like an all expenses paid poetry summit. They send a bunch of teens who also wrote poetry across the country to somewhere in Canada, and you just enjoy, have like poetry activities, meet real poets, and you kind of just like stay there for a whole week and have fun, you know, just like bathe in the atmosphere of like poetry. It was so nice. It was like one of the best weeks of my life. So yeah, that I strongly recommend. You should totally submit your work to Poetry and Voice and Future Verse happens every year. Also for teens, I think from grade like high school teens. I'm not sure of the age exactly, but strongly recommend. It's a super great opportunity if you like poetry. And again, like meeting like-minded people, I still have contact with all of them. And we still have monthly meetings where we would Zoom call and talk about our own projects and give each other some inspiration on what to do next. And it's just really cool. It's a super cool group of people. And it's also bilingual. So both languages are welcome.

Jenna Morton - That's fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing what you got out of the competition and what you've been accomplishing since. Thank you so much. I'm really looking forward to reading more of your work in the future because I'm sure there will be more to come that you'll share with us all.

Teresa Wu - Thank you, Jenna.

Jenna Morton - Teresa Wu attended Bernice McNaughton High School in Moncton when she was awarded the 2024 Sherry Fitch Prize for Teen Writers. She's currently studying at McGill University. Thank you for listening to this episode of WordCraft, where we were focusing on previous winners of the New Brunswick Writing Competition held annually by the Federation of New Brunswick Writers. You can find details about the past winners, including our guests today, as well as information about the competition if you're feeling inspired to submit your own work. Again, submissions are open January 1st to March 31st each year. There are 8 categories for previously unpublished works by New Brunswick residents. You can find all the details on our website, wfnb.ca. Look for the writing competition link.

Tosh Taylor - WordCraft is a project by the non-profit Writers Federation of New Brunswick. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tash Taylor. We acknowledge the support of the Canadian Council for the Arts. The Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick acknowledges that the land on which we live, work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Woolastook and Mi'kmaq peoples. We honor the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship.

Tosh Taylor - The voices of New Brunswick writers are the heart of WordCraft, a podcast aimed at creating Community through Words. WordCraft is a creation of the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick, a non-profit organization that helps New Brunswick writers to write, acquire skills, and showcase their talents to the world. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton, with technical production by Tosh Taylor. The WFNB acknowledges that the land on which we live, work, and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Woolastook and Mi'kmaq peoples. And we honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship. We acknowledge the support of the Canadian Council for the Arts.

Jenna Morton - Hello and welcome. I'm your host, Jenna Morton, and you are listening to Word Craft, a podcast by the Writers Federation of New Brunswick. This season we are diving into some of the programs that are essential to promoting writing and reading in this province. One of those programs, of course, is the Writers in the Schools program. This has been a program that has been connecting authors and illustrators with classrooms in the province for decades. To reflect on its impact, its importance. I'm going to be joined by some of the key members that are involved with this, both from the Department of Education side of things, as well as the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick, which helps bring in the authors who are connected to the program. I am pleased to welcome Ginny Hill to the program. She is the coordinator on behalf of the Province for the Writers in the School program, as well as Valerie Sherrard and Kelly Cooper, who kind of have double duty here. They help out on behalf of the Writers Federation of New Brunswick in keeping the database together. They are also authors who have been in classrooms as part of this program, and Kelly is also a teacher as well. Welcome to you all. Welcome to Wordcraft.

Valerie Sherrard - Thank you.

Kelly Cooper - Hi.

Jenna Morton - Thank you so much for joining us to talk about this program. I know a lot of people listening will have memories of it, an understanding of it. Some people will go, oh, well, the name sounds, you know, pretty self-explanatory, but I know there's a lot more behind the framework of the program. And so, Ginny, I'm wondering if you could start us off by giving us a bit of an overview of what exactly the Writers in the School program is.

Ginny Hill - Sure. It's a Department of Education initiative. I am the coordinator, and what we try to do is introduce students all over the province to our New Brunswick writers, whether it's a small school like on Grand Manan or whether it's a big high school like Saint John High. Everyone has the opportunity. to be involved. But the important part or the way that it happens is the teacher. The teacher is the crux of all this. They have to apply to the program to be part of it. They have to set up the day and make sure it works when the author comes in as to what classrooms they go to. So our problem now is teachers are very, very busy. And in all honesty, COVID affected our program a lot. It took about three years after for the schools to be allowed from the Department of Education to expand. And it took a while to come back to life. We came back double now because some are doing it as a video conference. The majority still want you to be physically in front of them. They want to really meet that real life author, even though she can see her when we do it, and she's up on the screen, it's still not the same. But we also have some authors with health problems and fear of winter driving, so it works for them.

Jenna Morton - It's wonderful to have, different platforms, different ways, different opportunities so that everyone hopefully has the same chance. I'm hoping that we can, convince some of those teachers who might be listening that they want to have this in their classroom. And I think one of the best ways to do that is to kind of hear it, from the author's perspective, what that magic is like when you have one of these visits in the classroom. And maybe, Valerie, if you want to start by sharing some of your experience.

Valerie Sherrard - Well, I will visit students pretty well of almost every grade range. I prefer not to do 11 and 12 so much because chiefly because most of my material is not for that age group, but I have picture books, middle grade novels and so forth. And I really enjoy connecting with the students from the office perspective with respect to virtual versus in-person. In-person really can't compare or I should have said that the opposite way. That's what we writers do. Like we start something and then we revise it. So I'm just giving you like an in-person example of that. So the virtual visit, in my opinion, doesn't compare to the in-person visit. The in-person visit, you really have that connection with the students. You know, they're present right there in front of you. You can see how they're responding to what you're discussing. whether it's literacy or you're talking about a specific work or a specific subject that fits in with the curriculum and ties in with one of your works or whatever. So it's really like a come alive kind of thing when you're in the classroom or even before a larger group and you see how they're reacting, you're able to field questions immediately that nobody has to come to a microphone or pass a question to somebody else or whatever. There's a real immediacy there in the classroom that I absolutely love.

Jenna Morton - And Kelly, I know that you've also taken part as an author in this program. What are some of the things that you've taken away from being in the classroom with students?

Kelly Cooper - Well, it's, you know, it's very rewarding to watch students respond to the work, and they often have questions - like really excellent questions for the author that talks, you know, then those questions allow me to talk about words and the importance of certain words or talk about the process. Like I was doing a reading, just for example, if you'd like an example, I was reading one of my picture books, and at the very end of the book, there's a blank white page and a single word on it, and the word is home. And I had a student in grade two put their hand up and say, “why is there just one word on that page?” And then we were able to talk about how some words, they have a lot of weight. They're very important words. And we kind of all agreed at the end that home was a pretty important word and maybe it deserved its own page. So just those little opportunities that you have to reinforce the different ways that language can be used.

Jenna Morton -  I love that example.

Kelly Cooper – Yeah, it was a very nice moment as the author for the student to pay attention and notice that.

Jenna Morton - You mentioned reading from a picture book and we've been talking about some of the younger students, but this is a program that goes right through to the high school age. I'm wondering if you can, and I don't know who might want to take this question first, talk a little bit about the difference in how a program like this would work from, an elementary school classroom to a high school classroom.

Kelly Cooper - Well, I can say a few things about my most recent high school visit. I actually helped a small group edit a children's picture book they were preparing. So they were an enrichment group at a high school in Saint John, and they were preparing a children's book through a project they were working on. So they wanted me to spend the afternoon with them and help them kind of edit their work. And, and that was really interesting. And, you know, in that case, I was only working with a group of maybe five or six students. And, and then, so, you know, you can do kind of sometimes I do more workshop things. And then with the younger students, it tends to be more readings in my case.

Valerie Sherrard - Reading and, you know, the younger students, they need different things to pull their attention. Obviously, like you usually will have some visuals and you'll have some keywords and you'll have as much audience participation as you can with the younger students because that really keeps them engaged. You know, I have when I read one of my picture books, I have keywords that they have specific assignments to respond to. And they're listening carefully as I read the story because they're listening for their words so that they can say moo or ribbit or whatever their particular assigned role is. And then as you move through the middle grades, of course, it's just the level of where they're at in their education and what they've been exposed to, what subject matter is appropriate for the different age groups and so forth, and then into the higher grades. I guess like my chief concern with the higher grade levels is that most of the students are far more sophisticated than I am. So I feel often like just kind of like the misfit in the room talking about writing or talking about literacy or whatever, you know, whatever the teacher has requested. I'm never sure that I'm really connecting with them in the same way. I really feel the connection with the younger groups, the little ones, the middle grades, up to eight, even nine. But over that, usually, I feel like that it's not exactly the same. And part of that, I think, is just where they're at in their social development, that they're not that keen to be responsive in the same way that the younger ones are.

Jenna Morton - I think as a mother of a teenager, I think you've nailed that exactly. It's not their interest that's reflective of their approach there.

Kelly Cooper - I think that depends too on what kind of class. Like, you know, if you go into a creative writing class, that might be a great fit because those students have an interest in creative writing and some of them are really…They really want to talk to you about your process. They really want to ask what that's like, or they sometimes they want to ask about the money, which is, you know, you have to be honest and say, “there's not a lot of money often in this necessarily,” but they, you know, they have different questions. And I think it's partly, you know, I'm a teacher, I'm an art teacher actually, and I do that as well. And it's the teacher's role to kind of prepare the class for the, for the, I've gone into visits and the teacher had, you could tell that they had prepared some questions beforehand so that those questions would be asked at the end or they had talked about what would you ask a writer, that kind of thing. And so that that was helpful, right? If the teacher kind of sets it up so that there can be that kind of participation, because, yes, they are hesitant sometimes and quieter, and and you know, maybe a little less spontaneous than the younger kids. So they kind of need that that bit of encouragement, I think, or a bit of support.

Valerie Sherrard - I think teachers who have had students just, you know, randomly ask questions without vetting them first, sometimes get a little bit wary. Like I've seen many teachers look horrified when a student will ask me either how much I make or how old I am. That seems to be like a just a general interest at every turn. When they ask me how much I make, I say, well, it's a percentage. So like, you know, if it's 10% and if a book is, if a book is $10 and you're making 10%, if you sell, 500,000 books, you'll make $500,000. And if you make and if you sell four books, you'll make $4. And so that it really depends on sales. And they…always their faces always fall. And you say the $4 thing. I mean, that hasn't happened yet, thankfully, but you never know.

Valerie Sherrard - And it's a good chance to talk about the royalty system at that point, right? Because that's that's an important part of of the writing life is that idea of royalties and sales. So with the older students especially, you can get into that with them a bit more. And then you can also talk about, you know, if you want to, you can go into intellectual property and copyright. Sometimes it leads in that direction, how, you know, ideas have value and that sort of thing.

Ginny Hill - Unfortunately, our high school teachers are not applying as much as our middle and elementary. I think the semestering has a lot to do with it. They have two different groups of students within a year. They have certain goals and objectives they need to complete. So unless they decide, I find early in the semester that they're going to have an author, it probably isn't going to happen. But the interesting thing is when this program started, the Department of Ed gave the high school teachers’ council, $5,000 that went far, right. And it was only high school teachers that could use the program. And now I practically have to contact a teacher I know in a high school and say, look, you forgot about writers in the school this year. So I know they're very, very busy, but that's our weak link right now. And we have tried to to build it up because elementaries have really jumped on it. That's where, well, Valerie, you get called, I know the most for sure. Oh no, maybe middle with a lot of your books too. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenna Morton - Yeah. I'm wondering if you could share a little bit more about the process from a teacher's point of view of how they connect with the program and find out what is available.

Ginny Hill - But in September, the department sends out a memo that goes to every school in the province with an application form attached and explaining that if they went on to your Writers Federation website, they could find the authors that are actually part of the program. Without the support that I ended up with a few years ago, when I didn't have to come up with the list of authors, it is wonderful. The website is maintained by the Federation and it's updated. People contact Valerie still, I think, you know, if they've got a new book or whatever. So it is maintained by the Federation. So I now just have the teachers to work on. So they get this memo that comes out that goes to the principal and then we have to pray it gets passed there because they're so busy. But most cases there's department heads and so on, and they pass it on to that teacher. Or I have some teachers that have applied already. They apply every year. And then they go on and they pick the author that they're interested in, apply to me. There's a $75 charge to a school and then I pay the - which is 300 - the honorarium for the author, plus travel and overnight if it's necessary. So it's to take the time to go through the website with the list, but it tells what age the books are appropriate for and what areas they will travel to. And if your name starts with A, you probably get a few more calls.

Jenna Morton - I have to say, I did go on the website and it is very user friendly to be able to kind of go through very quickly and know, oh, I'm in, Anglophone East and I'm looking for a writer who would speak to a high school group and the names come up and it's very simple to kind of then go through and try to decide which one might match best with, the students that you have or the curriculum that you're trying to teach that year.

Ginny Hill -  And then they make the contacts, personally with once they know it's approved, and tailor it to work with what their goals are or what they are studying at that time. Our authors are wonderful with that. When I get the the evaluation forms back, she did exactly what I wanted. And, you know, there's very few complaints.

Jenna Morton - I was wondering if we could talk a little bit more about that, about, some of the feedback over the years. And I know, Ginny, that you've, you've been running this program now for decades. I'm wondering if you can share, you know, some of those moments that have really kind of stuck out and those stories that resonate that really help keep this program going.

Ginny Hill -  I like it when a school sends me little notes from the students as well as just that basic checklist that goes out or if they bother to really explain what was the strongest point about the visit. The main positive from the teachers is that the authors are interested in the curriculum base. They do exactly what the objectives for that year are. The fact that they work together instead of just coming in… way back, sometimes they weren't, they didn't converse that well, I don't think. And now they tell them what, they need to do for outcomes. And the authors are really tuned into what they want and…very positive feedbacks.

Jenna Morton - Kelly or Valerie, do you have a, you know, a standout moment in your head from being in a classroom and, you know, someone who came up to you or came up to you years later and said, I remember when you came to my class.

Valerie Sherrard - I actually had that happen this spring. I was doing a lot of visits relative to, this year is the 200th anniversary of the Great Miramichi Fire. And one of my earlier novels, Three Million Acres of Flame, is about that. So I had a lot of local school visits earlier this year. One of the teachers, after I had finished my presentation to a large group, one of the teachers came up to me and he said, “I heard you present on this book, what the year that it came out.” I said, “were you a student?” And yes, he had been a student and he'd gone full circle and now he was a teacher, and his class was there. So that was very cool.

Ginny Hill - And also the authors fill out an evaluation form on the visit to the school. And I sometimes have gone back to the schools when, you know, there's something that's mentioned, when there's not a teacher present or a teacher that has met you at the door or somebody. Like, if you're going to invite an author, you need to make it welcoming. And so I follow up on your forms as well, but they're pretty positive too.

Kelly Cooper - I had an interesting experience. My publisher had given me all these postcards with images from the book that I could give to students. So I would finish, I finished my reading and I- I gave, you know, I gave out these postcards and the idea was they could, they could write a message to a friend. But then one student brought it up to me and wanted me to sign it. He wanted like my autograph, which had never happened. And so then, of course, it being elementary school, then you can guess what happened next. Like, everybody wanted me to sign their postcard and, and I thought, well, okay. Yes, I will do that. It kind of was not the intention of the postcards. Anyway, it was very charming, actually. It was quite fun, but it was not really what I expected to happen at the end of the visit.

Valerie Sherrard - I pre-sign my postcards before I do a school visit always because I've been in that very same spot, Kelly. It's so fun when you've got, you know, 60 or 70 children and there's a two-minute window between one class leaving and another coming in, everyone wants your signature. So I just sign them. I'll just pop them in front of me when I'm watching TV or something. I'll just sign hundreds of them for a time and take them with me ready to go.

Kelly Cooper -  Good idea.

Ginny Hill - And some of you authors do hear from the students sometimes afterwards. Sometimes you turn them on to writing and the teachers have said, is it okay if I contact the author? They want her to proofread it or at least know she I did what she said was important to do. And that to me is the real positive when it goes that next step, not just go and read. and leave and hope you do turn someone on. It's really fun to find that you did.

Jenna Morton - Yeah. Well, I will share briefly with you that it wasn't the New Brunswick Writers in the School program, but in Nova Scotia, we had a similar thing. And that's pretty much why I'm here now. When I was in middle school, there was an author who came in to, you know, give a talk about his book. I remember us all kind of funneling into - It wasn't a theater, it wasn't that nice, but it was a bigger room than a classroom. And at the end, he took questions. And I wasn't brave enough to ask in front of the whole room. But before he left, I made my way up and I said, you know, if someone likes writing and thinks that they're good at doing this, you know, what should you do for university? And he said, University of King's College in Halifax. It's a great school. And probably never really even put a lot of thought into his answer, to be honest. And I took that and ran with it. And that's where my degree is from. And because of that, the rest of my career was set into motion. So it's those little moments that a lot of times you might not even know that you've had that impact by talking to a student in class, but every one of those kids has probably gone on. and told someone else about it, whether or not it's impacted the rest of their life. On that note, is there anything else about the Writers in the School program or connecting with writers and readers in this province that you'd like to share before we wrap up our conversation today?

Kelly Cooper - I would just say that I would, you know, encourage, you know, writers and schools both to participate. I think that, as you said, you never know. There's still not very many students that meet a writer who has a physical book they can show them that they have created, right? So I think it's for the few kids in the room, especially who might be interested in writing, I think it really does. It's very useful for them to see there are people out there doing this. You know, there are people out there who are creating books, like they're these, these things that we, we use every day in school. Like, here's the person, here's one of the people that actually created that, like the, the manuscript that led to that physical object. So I think, you know, there's, there's value in that for sure, uh, for, for students, uh, to see that that's a real job.

Jenna Morton - And I would think a lot of power to see that not only is it a real job, it's someone here in New Brunswick who is creating this and doing this here in this place. I don't have to leave and go somewhere else to make this happen if it's my dream.

Kelly Cooper - Yes, I think that's important for kids.

Jenna Morton - Well, I'd like to thank you all for taking the time to share a little bit about taking part in the Writers in School program, as well as thank you for all the time that you've spent in classrooms and coordinating people to get to classrooms. I think it's a fantastic program that I hope people will listen to this podcast and maybe you'll get one or two more teachers reaching out.

Kelly Cooper - Thank you, Jenna.

Valerie Sherrard - Thank you, Jenna.

Jenna Morton - Thank you so much. My guests have been Ginny Hill, Valerie Sherrard, and Kelly Cooper talking to you about the Writers in the Schools program. If you would like more information about the program, perhaps you're a classroom teacher who is now inspired to invite authors or illustrators into your classroom. You can find all the information about the program through our website. You're going to go to the Writers’ Federation website, which is wfnb.ca, and you can add the slash WISP for Writers in the School program, and it'll take you directly to the page. Or you can just look under the programs tab for Writers in the School. I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion, that you can like, share, subscribe, follow along, do all those wonderful things. Most importantly, if you know a teacher tell them about this program, ask if they've had a writer welcomed into their classroom, and that they should check out the program. Thank you so much for joining us, and make sure you tune in to the next episode of WordCraft.

Tosh Taylor - WordCraft is a project by the non-profit Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton, with technical production by Tosh Taylor. We acknowledge the support of the Canadian Council for the Arts. The Writers' Federation of New Brunswick acknowledges that the land on which we live, work, and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Woolastook and Mi'kmaq peoples. We honor the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship.

Transcript (continued from part two)

Jenna Morton - Rhonda, I'd love to bring you back into the conversation on that point of kind of those full circle moments and looking back over 40 years and kind of give us a snapshot of how this fits into what the Federation is doing now and is looking forward to.

Rhonda Bulmer - Well, you know, I joined the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick in 2010 as a new writer who was not published, who had a manuscript that probably wasn't that great, but I had high hopes for it. I had written my first book when I was 15 on a typewriter my parents gave me for Christmas. And I always, but I didn't, because I shot for the moon and sent my romance spy novel that I wrote at 15 to McClelland and Stewart, figured that they would publish it because they published Margaret Atwood, why wouldn't they want my book? And I got this big rejection from, but I hand-typed, like an editor bothered to actually type out a rejection for me and say, ‘Don't give up. Keep writing. Here are all the publishers that publish books.’ And I'm just telling you that because I think that for me, the Writers’ Federation, just as an aspiring writer, made it possible for me to not give up. And it's because of the writers who I met who were established, and really good writers, and kind of took me under their wing. And I don't know, they felt sorry for me or something. But I really appreciated that, and I feel like I've gotten so much out of this organization. So I think even though the structure might be a little more formal with the programs that we do regularly through the year, the heart of it is still the same. And we still don't have a tiered membership -  no matter who you are, you can be a member. And I think it gives more established writers an opportunity to shepherd writers who are not, but have big dreams. And I really appreciate our more senior writers. I mean, senior as in accomplishment, not necessarily in age, although I think they sometimes go together - age and accomplishment. And so, for full circle moments, I would say that all of our programs run together in order to create that. So we send writers into the schools to encourage young people. We have young people submit stories to the Sheree Fitch Prize for Teen Writers in the New Brunswick Writing Competition. We've had, in my time as ED since 2021, I've seen quite a few, like some kids submit things just because their teacher is encouraging it. And some people submit because you can see it. It's 15-year old Rhonda, you know, you can see it. The person wants to be a writer - they need to express themselves through words. And then, you know, you get someone who, like, Thomas Chamberlain this year. He submitted a book, a manuscript twice to the David Adams Richards prize, he won. He got an Honourable Mention the first year, he took it back, he took that as encouragement, he got an editor, he really worked hard. He submitted it again. The next year, he won second prize. And this year, he got a book deal. And so, isn't that awesome? That's what we're all here for. And, you know, and who knows, he might submit that book in the next year and the next year to the book awards. And he has an opportunity to win that. And I don't know, I just think it's very rewarding. I think you can do a lot with a little. We still don't have huge resources, but I think with what we have, we do our best to really create that grassroots opportunity, to connect and learn from one another.

Nancy Bauer - One thing is that we have never had even, we've just not had the right amount of money. We're so much the poorest federation. And part of that is that we kind of missed the real time when money was being given out. And that was around 1967, and afterwards when the federal government was giving money and provinces were giving money. And when we came along, that was not such a priority for the governments. And so, for example, we've never had, you know, enough money to pay Rhonda. I mean, we pay her, but we don't pay her anywhere near enough. We've never had really an office. Maybe that's a good thing. I don't know. I mean, do people get too...

Jenna Morton - There's something to the magic of the grassroots nature of the group.

Nancy Bauer - If they have enough money, I don't know. People have to be passionate about and do and do, you know, much more and with much more enthusiasm than they get paid for.

Rhonda Bulmer - I think maybe in this modern day, of internet connection, that a brick-and-mortar location is really not as important as it used to be, or it might have been. It might make some things easier, and it really just depends on who the ED is. I know that in the past when you've had EDs in Fredericton, they've had space at the Charlotte Street Art Center or something like that. For me, I have a home office, and it suits me just fine. And, you know, we can be nimble. We don't have a lot of the expenses that are attached to that. So, I think that's not the biggest worry. I think just having enough resources to pad our awards programs, particularly, you know, to be able to offer bigger prizes, to pay the judges more, that kind of thing. I think maybe just to sustain those programs in the long run, would be what I think we need resources for. And some philanthropists to come along and say, ‘I want to sow into this organization.’ So I have to seek those people out.

Jenna Morton - Well, if we're lucky, maybe they're listening to this and we'll hear the call. Before we end our time together, I just wanted to give each of you an opportunity to share some final thoughts, whether it's about the history or the future or just what writing in New Brunswick means to you. And maybe Ann, we'll start with you.

Ann Brennan - Yes, thank you. Because one of the things that my daughter Rayanne and I've been talking back and forth, she would like to do a history display, which is interesting. And I have some things here, including a lot of the little chapbooks and poetry books that began early on. I'm a pretty good saver of things. And I also come across a couple of nice articles about Maritime Writers’ Workshop. kind of thing. And so, Rayanne did ask that in this information session that we kind of search around and bring some things if you'd like to display them. So, I'm doing my best to get, I've got most of Alden Nowlan's books, and I thought I had some of Fred Cogswell's chapbooks. I haven't found them yet, but I'm sure I have some of Allan Cooper's books, but Allan, you probably have copies of some of yours.

Allan Cooper - I do.

Ann Brennan - Some of the few early…

Allan Cooper - I stored a few away for my daughter.

Ann Brennan - Yeah, well I know some of the early ones because I used to... I was always fun to buy your books. I always buy your books and I'm sure I have them all at one point. But anyway, I've been collecting them for her because we'd like to have a little bit of a display of some of those early productions and any photos or anything that you want to present. I think she'd be happy to have them. So anyway, that's one little project that we're working on.

Allan Cooper - Yeah, I'll try to get some stuff together for you.

Ann Brennan - Yeah. And just maybe in summation, I have to say that somewhat like Nancy, I think I'm going to be very sentimental because never, I think in our wildest dreams when this began, would we ever realize that in 40 years from now, we'd be sitting here celebrating it. Number one, I didn't think I was going to last that long. Every time I turn around, I think, okay, I'm still here. I'm still writing, actually. I'm doing the Fairy Chronicles book three. At my age, it's kind of exciting that I'm now doing what I love, and it's so much fun, and I'm not as hung up as I would have been 50 years ago. I think you write because you love it. And you just get up in the morning and think, ‘what can I, how many pages can I do today?’ As opposed to what, you know, you're looking at it a completely different way. It's, you write because you have to. I remember writing an article. to myself about getting up in the morning and knowing that I had to sit down and write in my journal. I've done that my whole entire life. And then every once in a while, I'll read my journal and come across these gems and think, ‘wow, did I really write that?’ So you're born to write. And I think that to go back to the beginning, these are changing times. And they say that the poets are always the leaders. They're always the leaders that write the songs and write the poems that inspire people and that people need that inspiration now. And they need us to continue with the poems, and they need us to write our stories, and they need us to dream. We need to dream the future, and that's our role. And don't be afraid to be outlandish. And dream big, and pass that torch to the young people. That's why we're here. So it's been my pleasure to be part of a group of dedicated friends that I've grown to love over the years. And it's been really special.

Allan Cooper - I think Ann has summed it all up for me. And the fact that she's still nurturing people and Nancy is still nurturing and encouraging people. And Me and now in my 70s, I'm using them as examples. It doesn't matter how old the writer is or whether they're beginners or whatever, I think we can all just feel the love and keep doing it. That's all.

Jenna Morton - Beautiful. Rhonda, do you have anything to say before we let Nancy have the last word?

Rhonda Bulmer - Oh gosh, like I said, I joined in 2010 and I was on the board in 2017 or '18, and I was the president. I felt like I wanted to give back the amount of encouragement that has been given to me, and mentorship by WFNB members. And I just appreciate the organization very much. I think it's worthy, and I think people are always better together.

Jenna Morton - Nancy, we're going to leave the last thoughts with you and back to your living room.

Nancy Bauer - Yes. I've always felt usually grateful to destiny or whatever it was that it landed me here because there couldn't have been a more perfect place for me. It was close enough to New England that it seemed familiar, but as I've said, far enough away to be exotic. There was so much excitement going on, so many people. I had absolute luck in this house. Bill and I chose it just on a whim, really, while we couldn't find an apartment. And so, it's a - the living room turned out to be a comfortable place for people, so that there was so much to do and so much excitement. And I just have-- looking back now all those years, I'm thinking how wonderful it was, how grateful I am. And it was wonderful for Bill, too. I mean, I think the university was the perfect place for him. It was a wonderful place to bring up children. And then to have all these people who were so, so creative and interesting. And I mean, Ann, I mean, Ann had me up to her farm and I went through a labyrinth and a fairy garden or fairy trail, I forget what you call it, Ann. And Allan and I wrote, when I was in the hospital a year ago, I had the most amazing experience that I've written about, about one of Allan's books. I've written to him, and showed him what I've written. There seemed just to be something in the air for me here. So, to have had this opportunity to step in when people said, ‘Oh yeah, let's have a Maritime Writers’ Workshop,’ or Kent Thompson said to my husband, ‘Tell Nancy to come to our writers group.’ And then somebody said, ‘Well, it would be great to have some chapbooks.’ And Mary Lund, ‘Why don't we start the Maritime Writers' Workshop?’ And Alan and others saying, ‘oh, the Writers' Federation, that'd be a great idea.’ It just went from place to place and all of a sudden I was in the midst of all this. It was just happening. Nothing I did to deserve it. But to become part of this is just-- could not have been better, really. Not at all.

Jenna Morton - I think that's a beautiful place to leave our discussion today. And on behalf of all of the writers and aspiring writers in the province, I would like to thank all of you who had a hand in starting the Federation and getting these first 40 years. under the belt and looking forward to what's to come next. So thank you so much for today and for everything you've done.

Rhonda Bulmer - Thank you.

Jenna Morton - Thank you to my guests for this discussion, Nancy Bauer, Ann Brennan, Allan Cooper, and Rhonda Bulmer. My name is Jenna Morton. If you've enjoyed this episode, please take a listen to our first season, featuring my discussions with six New Brunswick writers, sharing their thoughts on writing in this place, the role of the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick, and the importance of encouraging everyone to share their own stories.

Tosh Taylor - WordCraft is a project by the non-profit Writers Federation of New Brunswick. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton, with technical production by Tosh Taylor. The Writers' Federation of New Brunswick acknowledges that the land on which we live, work, and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Woolastook and Mi'kmaq peoples. We honor the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship.

Transcript (continued from Part One)

Ann Brennan - Well, he was a poet and the other one was, I was trying to think this morning, I know his name as well, but like Nancy says, we forget names now, we’re a little bit older. The gentleman from Saint John, I was originally from Saint John, my hometown. And he wrote about a street across where I grew up and I thought, he's writing about Saint John - I can do it, too. You know, that was, to me, opened a whole new world. I thought you had to be famous or something to write about Saint John. Not everybody did. Yeah. So, the Maritime Writers’ Workshop and through my connection with the people there, I went a few times to the Ice House and it was just sort of a natural birth of all of these people coming together. But I would go back and say the instigators were Fred and Alden and all the other authors and professors at UNB and the people that really believed in the writing profession. And it meant so much to those of us that were just starting, to believe in ourselves.

Rhonda Bulmer - What's the Ice House? Anne, what's the Ice House?

Ann Brennan - Well, Nancy's better probably to tell the details on that one, but it was a place where they were meeting, I think, once a week or maybe once a month. How did that go, Nancy? I just knew it was, you were pretty, it was a pretty, how can I say? key position for anybody to get invited to the Ice House or for me.

Nancy Bauer - No, that too was very definitely a place where anybody could come. And as Bill said, my husband said, the excitement was who was going to come through that door. And he loved that. And so nobody had to be invited. People did find out about it and came, and we welcomed them. You know, there was an incredible range of people. And the strange thing is that about 10 minutes ago-- and this is kind of like-- I got a manuscript from Jocelyne Thompson. She started a thing called The New Brunswick Bibliography. It's a series and there's five books so far and a couple in the works. And the bibliography for this fifth one is of the McCord Hall or Ice House Gang or, you know, Tuesday night group that had three different names. And it was the work that people published at that time, not the work that they went on to publish later, but the work that they published in the, I think it was 13 years, 14 years that we met. And we did meet every week, Tuesday night. And we met, you know, summer and winter. And I think the strange thing is that a West Coast poet, Dorothy Livesay [one of Canada's most influential modernist poets], had started this. She was a writer-in-residence at UNB, and she had people meeting in her apartment. Kent Thompson [author, editor, poet, playwright, and director] came to UNB and she invited him. And after she left, he decided to keep up the group. And eventually, well, at the first of it, we met in each other's homes. But eventually we settled on the Ice House. He had kind of commandeered it. It was a wonderful building, but nobody was using it. And it had the most fantastic atmosphere. I mean, really, it was almost like a chapel, I think. And Mary Lund came to that and as a self-confessed workshop junkie, conceived the idea of the Maritime Writers’ Workshop. And then as Ann said, everybody loved it so much and they heard so much about the Tuesday Night Group. And since then, people have established these little writing places, little writing groups all over the place. I think there are quite a few really in Fredericton now, so…

Jenna Morton - Allan, I'm wondering, how did you get drawn into the sphere of all this? Because you weren't part of the Fredericton crowd or the UNB crowd.

Allan Cooper - No, I was, I went to Mount A [Mount Allison University]. I almost went to St. Thomas, but that didn't - when I was going to do music. And when I went to Mount A, I was introduced to John Thompson, who's become a very important Canadian poet since that time. Although I also had association with Alden Nowlan. On the first day of, we had a meeting to elect the first president. And I went with my wife, and we were there and we were doing our you know, just going up to the meeting, and Peter Thomas came up to me and said, I want to nominate you for that position. And because Fred Cogswell, who was originally going to be the first president, had received an exchange, writer exchange program in Scotland, I believe. And so, I didn't know what I was doing. And I think Lori leaned over and hit me on the elbow and said, why don't you do it? And I said, well, I don't, you know, whatever. I was a greenhorn. I was 29 years old. You know, I had three small books of poetry published. I was about to start, take over a magazine called Germination from Harry Thurston. And so, I let my name stand. And it happened. But there's one little story I wanted to tell you about Alden Nowlan. He was at that meeting. It wasn't too long before he died. And before the vote, I decided I'd sneak outside. I smoked a pipe, and I wanted to go out, and I needed to calm my nerves because I didn't know what I was getting into really. I mean, I'd been involved with things at Mount A, but nothing like this. So I went outside, and Alden was there. He was having a cigarette. So we had a little conversation. And I said, ‘how's your writing going?’ And he said, ‘I'm still scratching away.’ And it was so neat. And he came back and he was sitting at the very back of the room that day. And when I came in, I thought, there was Alden. I'd never spoken to him before. So, we had a little conversation outside. So that was neat. And he was always one of my favorite poets. So, Greg Cook came up when we started getting the Writers’ Federation going and gave us all kinds of advice. He was executive director of the Nova Scotia Writers’ Federation. And that was, we had a committee, Ann and Nancy, I can remember some of the people who were on that committee, but can you guys fill me in? I know that Suzanne Alexander represented the government, and I remember that you were there. Was Michael Nowlan there? Yes, and I think who else was on that committee?

Nancy Bauer - A girl from Saint John.

Allan Cooper - Yeah, there was a group, but we would meet, we met at Nancy's place, and then everybody came to our house in Riverview. So, we had several meetings, and Greg Cook came up and sat with us for one of those meetings and gave us all kinds of advice. He was very, I found them very helpful, you know. The Nova Scotia writers were helping us.

Jenna Morton - When you were having those first meetings to bring this all together, what kind of vision did you have? What kind of discussions were you having about what you wanted to create?

Allan Cooper - Well, one of the things that Nancy mentioned was whether we would have two tiers or one tier. Nova Scotia Writers’ Federation had two tiers. We decided on one, so that it would be inclusive. That way you had established writers. alongside beginning writers. And there could be a nurturing, a natural nurturing going on in that kind of situation. And I think that for the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick, that worked very well. And I think it helped a lot of younger writers as they were coming up. So, and as Nancy said, there's two sides to that. But at the same time, if you've got everybody together, you know, it's like having, you've got three or four professional musicians together and then you bring in some children, and you let them play some instruments, you know, and it feeds the creative process that way, you know, and starts right at the bottom with the younger writers. So, the first year or so, the year that I was president, we had a lot of things we were trying to do. We were trying to get money to establish and, do more things, do book fairs and that kind of stuff. And eventually there ended up being a Writers’ Federation New Brunswick office in Fredericton. But we were trying to do that, and we tried to get a manuscript reading program together, where people could send in their manuscripts. And when I talked to Greg, he said, ‘there are a lot of writers out there who will help you.’ So I contacted writers in the Atlantic region and Ontario and further west, and called them and they agreed to sign up for that. So, we got some things going. There were hiccups that first year because we were starting basically with nothing but our own enthusiasm. So yeah, it was an interesting process.

Nancy Bauer - To Allan, the writers in the school, that was a great thing. And it was actually Michael Nowlan's idea, or we got it from him, sort of, because he used to have people into his classroom at Oromocto High School. And it just seemed like such a great thing that, and it was, we were quite, quite ahead of our times with that. Since then, all kinds of people have had that, but we were - it was interesting because writers would go all over the place. And it's a strange thing. New Brunswick is a small place geographically, but we, and I suppose it's the terrible roads or the awful winters or whatever. We don't seem to go from place to place.

Jenna Morton - I actually wondered a bit if maybe both Ann and Allan, if you could kind of talk to the importance you think the Federation has had in the rural parts of the province in finding those connections. You kind of alluded to it a bit before, Ann, about the importance, but I'd love to hear a bit more about how you think creating this Federation has helped grow literary, you know, people through the province.

Ann Brennan - Absolutely it did. I know even from my own part, I came up back up home, of course, as we progressed and we formed a small group ourselves up here. You know, it would come and go and we'd meet and I forget, there'd maybe be four or five of us, but we would continue to meet. And then, like I mentioned earlier, a group of us went down to the Ice House from up here, which would have been, you know, quite a trip for an evening. We drove down and it was so exciting to go down. We were going to meet with all these people that were published and it was a fun thing. So, I'm still in the same place in rural New Brunswick, and was very knowledgeable about trying to ride at a distance and not being able to go to everything. So that the Writers’ Federation itself was important, but the message was important too. I think we kept encouraging young writers. People would come and say, ‘Oh, I hear you're writing.’ And when Klondike Kate come out, just to go back to the writers’ in school, it was published by Goose Lane, and they were very supportive. And I did a lot of schools when that book come out in the early '90s. I mean, that was big for me because you didn't make money, but you got your expenses and you got to go to the schools and meet the children. And it supported not only the publication, but myself, as a writer to gain confidence. And I always enjoyed the children. In fact, we're still inviting the children to the coming to the farm now, since the Fairy Chronicles come out, the school children come here now and walk and it promotes the book, but it also promotes the writing part of it. So yeah, it's key, I think, to have your own organization. And it's the friendship, too, because I find as the years went by, I was always more than enthusiastic to help new writers myself, because I know how important it was for me in the beginning just to have some support. Yeah. So it's key, I think, to have your own organization that allows everybody in. Yeah.

Allan Cooper - Well, I'm sort of back and forth between Riverview and Alma, but we spent a great deal of time there still, yeah. I think that I'm thinking of one particular event in the fall of '83 when we had our first book fair at Mactaquac. And it was an interesting event because Premier Richard Hatfield arrived with his chauffeur, and I was having supper and Leona Keenan came in and said, the premier's here, you've got to go see him. So I got up, and I went into the room, and I introduced myself to Richard Hatfield and he started buying books. And he started at one end of the room, and he went all the way around and he bought a copy of every single book that was in the room. And his chauffeur was standing there with his hands below his waist and books tucked under his chin when he went out of the room. And it was one of those wonderful events. We hadn't had that kind of a book fair that I can remember, but I'd never been to one like that before, where it was all creative writers. And I launched my first book of poetry, or my third book of poetry, excuse me, at that fair. And these days with poetry and especially, the numbers are going down so much that a lot of publishers are now backing out of publishing books of poetry, which is a real shame because we have some of the finest writers in North America living uh, uh, here, but, uh, uh, I sold 50 copies of my book at that book fair. I couldn't, you couldn't do that today unless you were, you know, a well-known Canadian or American poet, you know, but 50 books! And my publisher was really happy to get the money because it basically paid for the cost of publishing the book, those first 50. And I find that, that, that the community has grown in New Brunswick simply because of the development of the Writers’ Federation. And I think younger writers perhaps are more liable now to go to more established writers or older writers and saying, ‘what do you think of this?’ And take advice and are sort of nurtured by older writers. And I think probably it was, it's all because of the development of the federation in the province.

Nancy Bauer - Richard Hatfield started giving out money. I forget exactly how the Arts New Brunswick evolved, but it did evolve. There was a kind of excitement, I think, and Richard Hatfield himself, I think he was interested in all the arts and crafts and was, you know, kind of a jolly, cheerful kind of a person who would be interested in the arts. And that made a huge difference, I think. But to hear Allan talking about selling 50 copies, it just it's kind of amazing. I think the whole thing is - that's amazing. We have a lot of poetry published, but Allan's right. It's not, not so much by the big publishers. It's, it's very, you know, it's little publishers as well. Maybe that's always been the way it is.

Allan Cooper - I think sometimes what happens is those, those little groundswells of small publishing companies, well, like your chapbook series. That's how I got to know of David Adams Richard's work and Brian Bartlett's work. And those were people that I wouldn't have met otherwise, I think, because of your publishing venture. Robert Gibbs, who else did you publish in that series, the New Brazil chapbooks?

Nancy Bauer - Oh, it was Kent and Jim Stewart, and they were all except one was a New Brunswicker. And Michael Pacey, yes. Most of them went on to write more poetry, but some of them, you know, disappeared. Michael Bryan Oliver. We didn't publish you. I don't know why we didn't publish you?

Allan Cooper - I was too young. They were older than I. I came along later.

Nancy Bauer - Yes, it's true.

Allan Cooper - I was probably still in diapers when you started that.

Nancy Bauer - That's right.

Allan Cooper - I just found it amazing because I remember-- I don't know whether Brian Bartlett's poem, This Bridge is No Bridge, was in that book. Or maybe it was the first one that Fred published after you published him. But you published him first, didn't you?

Nancy Bauer -  I published him first, and then we had another one. So we published two of them, yeah.

Allan Cooper -  Yeah, yeah. But there was one in there, and the poem still sticks with me. I told him when he was working on his selected poems a few years ago, how much that poem meant to me. And he said, other people have said that. But he said, I didn't think it was very good until later. And it was, it was, I'm sure it was in, was it Brothers Insomnia? Is that the book that you did?

Nancy Bauer - Yes. Yeah.

Allan Cooper - I think it was in that book. It might have been one of the early poems too. But that's how I got in touch with a lot of New Brunswick writers. I knew of Alden Nowlan. because someone had given me a book of his in the late 60s, but I didn't know who my contemporaries were as I was getting going, you know. And yeah, it opened my eyes a lot.

Jenna Morton -  I think that's such an important part that I've been kind of thinking in my head of a quote I heard the other day. I was talking with a friend and we were talking about, you know, how, how slow things are when you're in them to change or to evolve, but when you look back and you see how important that time was. And that comment you made there, Ellen, about, you know, being able to actually find your contemporaries in that moment and how powerful that is for driving things forward, like the legacy you three and everyone else who's been involved have created with the Federation over 40 years, it's such a powerful thing to bring people together and pull down those boundaries you were talking about. You know, it's not just that these people are famous and writing about famous things. These are the people that live near me and write about what I see. And I think it's very powerful what you all helped create with that.

Nancy Bauer - The people at the Ice House at Tuesday night or McCord Hall, whichever you call it, were not published. One of the motivations for the New Brunswick Chapbooks was to be published because the concept of chapbooks had kind of blossomed, and people were allowed to join the League of Canadian Poets if they had published a chapbook. We did all start out at the same, kind of the same level. My husband had not, I mean, he had written a PhD thesis on 18th century letter writing, but that was it. But I was having so much fun. and was so excited about going to the Ice House that he decided he wanted to come. But in order to come, he had to write, so he started to write. And Bob Gibbs saw that poetry didn't get quite the big excitement that stories and novels did. It's true, it's difficult to understand poetry. It's profound and there's no narrative thrust. So, one night he came, and he had written a story, and he said he'd written it just because he wanted to be entertaining. And there was that kind of mingling of things, why people wrote. And looking at the time, exactly as you said, Jenna, when you're in the middle of it, you don't see it. But from my perspective now, I'm amazed at how much one thing influenced the other. And it was …There was an excitement, I think the excitement had started in '67 - was Expo and Canada's birthday. And, you know, after the war and the baby boomers, all that kind of thing, there was an excitement in the air. And I'm wondering now, at this moment, explosion of Canadian kind of nationalism, elbows up, we're not going to do this. Well, I was raised and educated in the United States, and didn't come here until I was 31, and I'm 90. I'm going to be 91 very soon. I've always realized that Canada was very, very different than the United States. And I think the elbows up kind of thing is indicative of that. I mean, I could have told anyone who asked me that this is not, it is not going to be easy to annex Canada. And you maybe probably don't even want to. It's probably not be a good idea because there is a, it's a whole, it just seems like the same. When my parents would come, my father would say, ‘oh, it's just like the United States.’ And he would tell me something and I would realize, no, he doesn't get it. It's just not at all like the United States. But more like New England, I think the emphasis of Bliss Carman, and the influence of the Transcendentalists, Ralph Waldo Emerson and Thoreau had been immense here. I would say that, wouldn't you, Allan?

Allan Cooper - Absolutely. There's something else I wanted to add about Bill. I told you this a few years ago, I think. Coleman Barks, the American translator, the famous American translator of Rumi, went to university with Bill, right? Yes, yeah. And I was in touch with him a few years ago with Coleman, and we had quite an exchange for a couple of years. And I told him about Unsnarling String. He said, ‘How much did…’ because Bill, I don't know whether he was writing at that time or he was maybe not writing a lot when they went to university together. He went, he ordered a copy of Unsnarling String on Amazon and then he sent me a box of his own books, six or seven of his own book - Coleman Parks' translations - and his own poetry. And in the inside of one, he said, he put, ‘Remembering Bill Bauer, his presence lives on.’ So you have one of the probably the most famous American translator who went to university with Bill Bauer, who came to New Brunswick, and influenced a lot of us. And then like 40 years later, he's influencing Coleman Parks. So I love that big circle.

Nancy Bauer - Yes. It's wonderful. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Allan Cooper - So he read that book and he mentioned in the letter which poems particularly struck him, but he said the whole book was lovely.

(Transcript continued in Part 3)

Summary

“It thrilled me to realize you could write about where you lived.” Ann Brennan 

Imagine a room filled with New Brunswick’s literary masters – teenage Sheree Fitch and David Adams Richards sitting alongside Alden Nowlan. Nancy Bauer takes us back to that reality in her living room, hosting Maritime Writers’ Workshops in the 1970s and paving the way for the creation of the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick in 1985. She’s joined by Ann Brennan and Allan Cooper, who both played a role in the WFNB’s founding and early days. The trio reflect on the creation and legacy of the WFNB with host Jenna Morton. “A sense of community began to grow … [the Federation] was the perfect vehicle to do what I believed in so strongly -- that we need our stories, our local stories, to be told.”

Links and Citations

Nancy Bauer

Ann Brennan

Allan Cooper

Rhonda Bulmer

A Great Cloud of Witnessing

The Real Klondike Kate

The Faery Chronicles

Mary Lund

Fred Cogswell

Alden Nowlan

Dorothy Livesay

Kent Thompson

John Thompson

Peter Thomas

Harry Thurston

New Brunswick Bibliography

Writers' Federation of Nova Scotia

Greg Cook

Richard Hatfield

ArtsNB

Jim Stewart

Michael Brian Oliver

Brian Bartlett

Bliss Carman

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Henry David Thoreau

Coleman Barks

Unsnarling String

Bill Bauer

Transcript

Tosh Taylor - The voices of New Brunswick writers are the heart of WordCraft, a podcast aimed at creating community through words. WordCraft is a creation of the Writers Federation of New Brunswick, a non-profit organization that helps New Brunswick writers to write, acquire skills, and showcase their talents to the world. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton, with technical production by Tosh Taylor. The WFNB acknowledges that the land on which we live, work, and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Woolastook and Mi'kmaq peoples. And we honor the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship.

Jenna Morton - Hello, and welcome to season 2 of WordCraft. My name is Jenna Morton, and I am honored to bring you conversations with writers from across the province on behalf of the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick. This year, 2025, marks the official 40th anniversary of the WFNB. To mark the occasion, we've invited some of the organization's founders to join us for a discussion filled with memories and history and hopes for the future. Our guests for this discussion are some of the founding members of the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick. And while they are, of course, all writers, they are also mentors, community builders, tireless champions for the creative arts in this province and beyond, and they are part of the history of this organization. Nancy Bauer has been at the heart of arts and literary culture in New Brunswick since moving to Fredericton in the 1960s. Her living room is one of legend among writers of a certain age, and one might say the birthplace of what became the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick. She's a celebrated writer with a long career in arts journalism. Her work includes five published novels, and a recently published collection of her newspaper columns entitled A Great Cloud of Witnessing. It's edited by Ian LeTourneau and published by Chapel Street Editions. Nancy is also a past honorary president of the Writers’ Federation. Ann Brennan is a well-known social activist, an entrepreneur, and an author. She's published several books, including a biography of The Real Klondike Kate, several poetry collections, and her Fairy Chronicle series. She's a founding member and past honorary president of the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick. And Allan Cooper is an award-winning poet and musician, a literary editor, and the first official president of the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick. His work includes more than a dozen published poetry collections, hundreds of workshops conducted throughout Canada and the United States, several translated works, and he's the founder of Owl's Head Press, a poetry publishing imprint based in Alma. I'd like to do some quick introductions and have everyone say hello. First, I'm going to introduce the current executive director for the Federation, Rhonda Bulmer. Hello and welcome.

Rhonda Bulmer - Hello, Jenna. Thank you for having me. This is exciting.

Jenna Morton - Well, thank you for wanting to continue the podcast and to want to start this season with a celebration of 40 years of the Federation. Before we get really into everything that happened before now, can you give a quick little snapshot of what the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick is right now in 2025?

Rhonda Bulmer - Well, right now in 2025, I would say the Writers’ Federation's slogan is creating community through words. And so everything that we do is designed to help writers across the province connect. So if it's workshops taught by really stellar writers in a given discipline, or if it's our two awards programs, which is the NB writing competition, and then the New Brunswick Book Awards, and whether it's our events like Wordspring and Words Fall and, you know, other ad hoc events, retreats, it's an opportunity for writers to gather, to share what they know, to connect, because writing is a solitary experience…that first bit is solitary, but then you share it and you get feedback and you just talk with other people. It's a tremendously rewarding experience, I think. And so that's what we're continuing to try to do and to have an impact in our small community. And I feel that it's a great privilege to be a part of it.

Jenna Morton - Thank you for that little snapshot of what the Federation is doing. And I think that sense of community and connection is something that's been at the core of this organization for 40 years now. And like I said, we have three of the founding members with us today. I'm going to just give you a little brief introduction of each of our guests. Nancy Bauer has been at the heart of arts and literary culture in New Brunswick since moving to Fredericton in the 1960s. Thank you for joining us on the podcast, Nancy.

Nancy Bauer - Well, thank you for having us.

Jenna Morton - Thank you. And along with you, we have Ann Brennan, who is well known as a social activist, an entrepreneur, an author. Welcome, Ann.

Ann Brennan - Thank you so much. It's my pleasure to be here and celebrate with you. Yeah.

Jenna Morton - Well, thank you. And rounding out our group today, we have Allan Cooper, who is an award-winning poet and musician, a literary editor, and the first official president of the Writers Federation of New Brunswick. Welcome, Allan.

Allan Cooper - Thank you for having me today. I'm glad to be here with two of my favorite women. We've known each other for quite a long time, and it's like a gathering and a celebration as well.

Jenna Morton - It does feel like we should all be in one room together, maybe in Nancy's living room, reimagining what things were like back in the early days. And I'd love to start the chat there, Nancy, if you could kind of paint a little picture. I alluded to that it's all kind of is said to have come about in your living room, and I'd love to know more about that.

Nancy Bauer - Yes, my living room has been kind of a wonderful place, actually. It just happened that way. There was a young woman who came to our writers’ group, and her husband was a professor of math, and she called herself a workshop junkie. And so she suggested we start the Maritime Writers’ Workshop, which we did. And there, various people from New Brunswick, but also really from all over Canada came. And they had such a great time, and it was a wonderful time, that they said, ‘Why can't we have some kind of thing like you have at the Ice House, McCord Hall, or at the Maritime Writers' Workshop? And at that time, we were the only province in Canada that didn't have a federation. And I, of course, as you can tell from my accent, that I haven't lost for 65 years. (You'd think I would, but anyway, I haven't.) I was kind of gung-ho. And I'm, I often wonder now, you know, how come this person who was just an immigrant wound up doing all this stuff? And I don't know why, but at any rate, we all met and of course, and a woman named Mary Jane Losier from Miramichi, a woman named, I think… Her name is escaping me. Her last name is Richard, who was Simpson, Valerie Simpson, in my living room. And we discussed this in my living room because I live in Fredericton, which, as you know, is the center of the universe. So of course, it had to be in my living room. But yes, and we discussed it and we discussed how we would do it. And in the meantime, we've all looked at other places, Nova Scotia and well, Saskatchewan was the first place to have such an organization. And one of the things we decided was that we would make it, we would make everybody eligible. Everybody would be welcome. Other places had done it differently and I've often wondered whether this was a mistake or not. Other places had like two tiers and you could have people who had published be part of it. But the upper tier and the people who ran everything were published authors. There were some real disadvantages of both.

Ann Brennan - Yes, I guess I'd go back to Nancy, maybe even a little bit further. For me, the beginning was really the Maritime Writers Workshops at UNB, that Nancy, I think, was instrumental in starting. And when, I mean, I'm sort of going from back to the front by saying, when Rhonda talks about ‘creating community through words,’ to me, as a writer that lived in rural New Brunswick, I was over the moon to think that they'd even let me go to a workshop in Fredericton. I was thrilled to death. Nancy and I could tell a few stories about some of the meetings that we had. And the fact that everybody was accepted, because since I was a child, I said, I'm going to be a writer. And I did a lot of other things before I got around to it, but I wrote forever. And I can remember my first trip to Fredericton to the writers, Maritime Writers’ Workshop, Nancy, and going with a little file folder. And I had, I think, 3 poems in it. And Fred Cogswell was so kind to me. I couldn't believe it. And then to sit in a workshop and to listen to Alden read his poems was like, you know, being with... the creator, honestly, because he was so well known by then. But not only that, I think the key was he was writing about where I lived, and he had written a poem about a bus stop in Bath, and nobody ever wrote about Bath, New Brunswick. And I was thrilled to know that you could write about where you lived. And out of those workshops, I forget how many I attended, the community began there. Sherry Fitch was just a young girl and David Adams Richard was a teenager, I think, maybe 20, I don't know. He came and I can remember, you know, being at that workshop. And I'm sure I went at least two or three different summers. And for me, that was my beginning. And then when the opportunity came to join the group, create the Federation, I was all for it because it was just to me, the vehicle to do what I believed in so strongly, which was that we need our stories told and we need our local stories told. And you have to believe in it. And the group like Nancy and her husband, they were all telling us we could do it. Yeah, it was exciting times. Yeah. Does that help?

Nancy Bauer - You're making me cry.

Interview with Sue Sinclair 

Place, Purpose, and Community for New Brunswick Poets.

Listen on Spotify

Summary

Sue Sinclair and Jenna Morton discuss the art and practice of writing in New Brunswick, emphasising the importance of creating time and space for reflection upon life - and the unique way in which writing and reading can fulfil this need. They highlight the influence of place, purpose, and the vulnerability of putting one's work into the world. Sinclair emphasises the significance of community and a sense of place in her own writing process, underscoring the way that an energised and active writing community helps to both affirm the value of poetry in cultural life and maintain a connection between the writer and the process of writing. Sinclair also discusses how being in New Brunswick affects her writing and how the landscape and lifestyle here help her to find the calm necessary for her to do the act of writing poetry.

Links and Citations

• Sue Sinclair
  
• Almost Beauty
• New Brunswick Book Award: Fiddlehead Poetry Book Award
• Heaven’s Thieves
• Pat Lowther Memorial Award
• Don McKay
• Jan Zwicky
• Bill Gaston

Transcript

Sue: We'll also have conversations about the emotional side of putting your work out - that it's being vulnerable. That's a challenge. I don't know many people who don't feel that [while] putting their work out into the world. And there's not much to be done about that, but I think acknowledging it to each other can be helpful: acknowledging that there's a risk, and then you know, giving ourselves a pat on the back for taking that risk.

Tosh: The voices of New Brunswick writers are the heart of WordCraft, a podcast aimed at creating community through words. WordCraft is a creation of the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick, a nonprofit organisation that helps New Brunswick writers to write, acquire skills, and showcase their talents to the world. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor. The WFNB acknowledges that the land on which we live, work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. And we honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship. We acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts.

Jenna: Welcome to our final episode of season one of WordCraft. Thank you for joining me, Jenna Morton, on this journey of discovery and discussion around the art, and the practice, and the business of writing in New Brunswick. If you haven't listened to our first five episodes, please be sure to go back and listen to some wonderfully talented people open up about their process and their passion and settle in right now to hear the wisdom of poet Sue Sinclair. Her thoughtful reflections on how place can influence our practice of writing offers a perfect end to our first season of WordCraft, and a perfect beginning for your own exploration of what it means to you to be a New Brunswick writer creating in New Brunswick. Sue is an associate professor at the University of New Brunswick, and an award winning poet. Her 2022 collection, Almost Beauty: New and Selected Poems, won the New Brunswick Book Award for poetry, and her previous collection, Heaven’s Thieves won the 2017 Pat Lowther Award for the Best Book of Poetry by a Canadian Woman. Other collections have landed on the Globe and Mail's top 10 books list, and won international awards. Welcome to WordCraft Sue. 

Sue: I'm very happy to be here.

Jenna: Thank you so much for this. All season, we've been starting our discussions by really kind of taking things right back to the root. And I'd love to hear those first moments that you kind of remember going, "Oh, yeah, I'm a writer." And then how that translates to, "Oh, I actually have a profession where I can be a writer."

Sue: Right! Yeah, those are different things, aren't they? Okay, so if we go right back to the root. I was definitely a big reader, as a kid. I was probably a kid who wasn't so comfortable in the social world, and so books were...books were my social world. And I did grow up in a family that, you know, provided books, and I did read poetry as a kid, I had definitely a couple of anthologies. And, you know, I still have A A Milne poems stuck in my head from those days. So I definitely grew up as a reader, and that very easily translated into wanting to be a writer. But I would say that it took a while to realise what it actually meant to be a writer. I had sort of a romantic Anne of Green Gables idea of being a writer, but maybe not a lot of sense of what that is in practice - which is a lot of practice. So I would say that it took a while to really develop a strong practice of writing, like maybe in my late teens is when I really started developing a regular commitment to writing and to think about reading as a serious part of that activity as well: to read poetry as consistently and broadly as I could. I'm thinking about those moments, though where I read poetry and it did that thing, you know, and I went, "Oh!" And I think those happened in school, usually - those moments of finding poems and going, "Oh," like, I remember reading e e cummings for the first time and going, "oh!" It just did something. The world gets a little more magical. I think of that Emily Dickinson quote about what is it? Something like, "If I feel as though the top of my head has been lifted off, I know that's poetry." I feel like I had that feeling several times in school encountering poetry. And then let's see...I did do a degree in creative writing: a master's degree at UNB. That was a pretty significant watershed moment for me. In terms of - I was studying with Don Mckay and Jan Zwicky, and I had a really active and enthusiastic group of peers, and that was when I really got the sense of, "oh, you can build a life around this." And here, I'm sort of getting into your question, I suppose, about writing as something like a profession. It does seem very strange to talk about it in that way, but just about how a person could build their life around writing. And by writing, I mean also that it's a consistent sort of thoughtfulness about how you're living in the world too, right? It's not just words on paper, but it's really thinking hard about what it is to be in the world, and to experience the world, and to try to be a solid presence in the world. I will say that I'm grateful for studying with Don Mckay and Jan Zwicky, and Bill Gaston on the fiction side - I was still writing fiction at that point, too. They both sort of downplayed writing as a profession, and up-played - if that's a word - writing as a practice, as love, as care. And I have always had the hope that if you really are devoted to writing as practice, as care, as some form of relationship - the professionalisation stuff will sort of come in the wake of that. The hard part is writing something that is meaningful, helpful, challenging - whatever you want it to be. And then I suppose there is something about getting out in the world and sort of becoming a part of the world of published writing and parts of those conversations that appear around published writing. But then, I kind of still hope that the main thing is still just trying to write something that does something, and I'm kind of vague about what that something might be. There's another quote by Natalie Diaz who says, "Poetry is a room." And I think she said, "There are 100 ways of getting into that room [or] 1000 ways of getting into that room." So I'm a little vague about what the poem is or does - because I feel like there are multiple ways of entering the room or, creating a room, or being in a room. 

Jenna: I love that for sure. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that importance of community as part of the process of finding yourself in a life where writing is at the core of what you're doing? 

Sue: Yeah. I hear a lot of writers pushing back against the idea that writing is a solitary practice. And I don't know how much that idea is out there. And some of it, for sure, is solitary. At some point, it's me and the page, but it is true that for most of us, I will say, there is a lot of community around that work. And that there are many people who contribute to a piece of writing, before it gets published, and after it gets published. So that it really is sort of a little hub of community in that sense. There are...even though, when I publish a poem, my name is on it, there are usually several other people who have helped make that poem a reality. And then there's gonna be other people who sort of pick it up on the other side and work with it then. So yeah, *chuckles* there's community around it on both sides. Community is helpful too, in that the dominant culture - I'll say North America, since I'm here, or Turtle Island - the dominant culture isn't one that makes a lot of room for poetry. Or it places a lot of value on it in a very abstract way, but doesn't actually engage with it very much. Community, I think, can be really helpful in just maintaining that sense that this is an important part of cultural life. It can be an important part of an individual person's life, to sort of affirm that there are other people who are finding this important, sustaining, challenging, in all the ways that you might do. Yeah, to sort of keep faith that this is a worthwhile endeavour.

Jenna: Thinking along those lines, how can New Brunswick, and the people [who live] here, step up? What should we be celebrating? What should we be thinking about when it comes to the poets who call this place home?

Sue: Supporting each other and recognizing the worth of what's in our own backyard. It's very easy to underrate what's right under your nose. I think it's good to see the value of what's right under our nose and to prize what's near us. And I mean that both in terms of supporting each other as writers, but also, the worlds that are New Brunswick. Not that everyone has to write about place, but it's good to be attentive to place and see the value of what there is to be written within the New Brunswick landscape and culture here.

Jenna: For you as a writer, what role does being here play? Are there...is it part of your work? Or is it just where you do your work? How does New Brunswick and this place interact with you?

Sue: Definitely part of my work. I would say it also is a place that allows that work to happen fairly easily. I've encountered a couple of writers who have moved to New Brunswick from more metropolitan centres, let's say, and have spoken to me about how they feel their whole nervous system just sort of calming down, and how helpful that is to them, as writers. I don't want to overstate the sort of ‘New Brunswick friendliness,’ and fairly easygoing ways of being, but I think there's something to that. And the natural world is right on our doorstep - most of us - in New Brunswick, and that also has that calming-down-the-whole-system effect. And I think that that's a good place for many of us to write from. You can't have that state, if your shoulders are tensed up, and you're anxious, and you're under certain kinds of pressures. So I think that ease is very helpful to writers. Not to say everyone in New Brunswick is going to have that same experience, but it's something I feel, and I know that at least a couple of other people have felt it. And then New Brunswick definitely also enters my writing as place. I like to write about place: thinking about how poetry can sort of help us to struggle with the question of how to be here. I feel like poetry is that for me. Maybe it's not always a struggle, but as a settler for sure, there's a lot of struggle involved in the question of how to be here.

Jenna: Thinking of it from the more practical side of the business of writing, what are some of the advantages, or some of the things about this area - this place - that have been beneficial to you, as a poet and a writer?

Sue: I don't know if this counts as 'the business of writing,' but I feel like I need to go back to that sense of community. There is a really lively writing world in New Brunswick, that is helpful. I mean, we're ultimately each other's allies in the world of the business side of writing, as well as the world of the practice and joy and struggle of writing. So that probably is what I feel New Brunswick offers me the most, in terms of the business side of writing. 

Jenna: You're a professor. You see a lot of people who are, maybe they're just there because there's a bit of an interest, but obviously you would have students come through who have a real passion and are looking to pursue writing as something more than just a class they're taking at university. What kind of advice and encouragement do you give to people who are trying to find how to fit this into who they're going to be? 

Sue: It can be a tricky thing to figure out how to be a writer and make a living, and people approach that question in different ways. Especially as a poet! I mean, is there anybody out there who is just a poet? So usually, it's writing and something else, and the trick is finding the ‘something else’ that feels complimentary to the writing. So I will talk with people a little bit about that: the different ways of figuring out what might be a way of making money that allows writing to happen as well. There's a lot of questions around how you go about publishing your work, if you're sort of new to the idea of publishing your work. So I'll often give people advice about sending work out to literary journals. That's often a first step for people in terms of getting the work out into the world. That's a fairly straightforward process. You know, I often just offer people some names of journals and say, "Go look at their website. They will show you how to submit; they will tell you what they're looking for," and I try to demystify it as much as possible. And then I will also have conversations about the emotional side of putting your work out. That it's being vulnerable, [and] that's a challenge. I don't know many people who don't feel that in putting the work out into the world. And you know, there's not much to be done about that, but I think acknowledging it to each other can be helpful -  acknowledging that there's a risk. And then, you know, giving ourselves a pat on the back for taking that risk. And also acknowledging that this comes with disappointments. That putting your work out there, "Do you want this for publication?" is going to mean you're gonna hear, "No, actually we don't," several times over. And just helping people to be prepared for that reality, and to acknowledge it as like, "This doesn't  mean you failed; this is just part of the work of putting writing out into the world, for others to read."

Jenna: I think that's such an important reminder for all of us constantly along this journey: if you're opening yourself up, yeah not everyone's going to like what you put out there. That doesn't impact the value of the action of doing it or what you created. What final thoughts do you want people to take away from this conversation when they're thinking about the role that writing and poetry can play in their daily life?

Sue: I think that many of us experience a lot of demands to be on the go, be on the go; do this, do that, do the other thing; switch our attention from this, to that, to that, to that, as quickly as we can. I think it is difficult to create little oases of calm: of reflective time, of time to think about the big questions that most of us carry around with us, you know. Who am I? What does it mean to be here? What's important? What are my responsibilities? What do I love? Why do I love it? And that creating a little space of time - I don't know when - it might be daily, for some people. It might be weekly for some people. Maybe it's monthly. That can be just such a valuable part of a person's life. And the commitment to writing or to reading, or to both, can be part of creating those little places to really think about how it is that you're approaching being here in the world, which is such a bizarre state. And to have some awe and some wonder at that, and to try to come to terms with whatever you need to come to terms with, because we've all got that. And you know, it's not going to be writing for everybody. For some people it is going to be music or visual art, or maybe it's going to be writing AND some other thing, or for some people it's gonna be meditation. But one of the things it can be for sure, is reading and writing. And I'm really grateful for reading and writing for that in my own life.

Jenna: I think that's a beautiful space for us to end this conversation with today. Thank you so much, Sue,

Sue: Thank you very much for your questions. I appreciate them.

Jenna: Sue Sinclair is an award winning poet and associate professor at the University of New Brunswick. Thank you to Sue, to all of our guests, and to you for listening to our final episode of season one of WordCraft. If you haven't listened to our previous episodes, please do. And please leave us a review and share this with the people in your life who love writing and who love New Brunswick. My name is Jenna Morton; it has been my absolute pleasure to be on this journey with you. I hope that we will all be back here for season two of WordCraft, and until then, keep writing. keep reading and keep celebrating all that New Brunswick has to offer.

Tosh: WordCraft as a project by the nonprofit Writers' Federation of New Brunswick. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor, we acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts. The Writers' Federation of New Brunswick acknowledges that the land on which we live, work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. We honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship.

Interview with Terry Armstrong 

The Importance of Local Community, Global Reach, and Learning from Failure.

Listen on Spotify

Summary

Terry Armstrong discusses his diverse writing career, from songwriting to novel writing and scriptwriting. He shares his initial inspiration from a college professor and the importance of both positive and negative feedback in his development. Terry emphasises the value of alpha readers and the importance of writing for an audience, not just for oneself. He highlights the opportunities in New Brunswick for writers, despite the challenges, and stresses the need for writers to market their work globally. Terry also reflects on the lessons learned from failures and the importance of writing responsibly for readers.

Links and Citations

• Terry Armstrong
• Cary Caffrey
• Concordia Creative Writing Program
  
• Jacob Zilber Scholarship for Screenwriting
  
• Neon Rider
  

Transcript

Terry: So I was just like, "Yeah, dive in!" Right? I didn't want to do music anymore. So what am I going to do? Go back and get a real job? Nah, screw that! I'm going to finally learn how to write a novel, which was really hard. *laughter* So it's like, really hard. I'm not going to tell anybody, "Man, writing is easy." Oh, I told you, script writing was easy. It is easy - compared to writing a novel. Wow.

Tosh: The voices of New Brunswick writers are the heart of WordCraft, a podcast aimed at creating community through words. WordCraft is a creation of the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick, a nonprofit organisation that helps New Brunswick writers to write, acquire skills, and showcase their talents to the world. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor. The WFNB acknowledges that the land on which we live, work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. And we honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship. We acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts.

Jenna: Welcome to the fifth episode of WordCraft. I'm your host, Jenna Morton. This season, we're exploring what it's like to live and work as a writer in New Brunswick, engaging creatives in several different genres and conversation. The spotlight this episode turns to Terry Armstrong. Terry is a full time writer, editor and writing coach - with a career path that ping pongs from having his music on Dawson's Creek to winning the Jacob Zilber [scholarship] for Screenwriting to his Amazon global best selling science fiction romance series published under the name Cary Caffrey. Welcome to WordCraft, Terry.

Terry: Thank you so much. This is a pleasure. It's a treat.

Jenna: I'm really looking forward to this discussion, because you have had so many different writing hats on in your career, already. You've been a songwriter, a scriptwriter, author, coach, editor. I would love to know more about all those shifts, but I'd really like to know where did it all start? When was that first time you were like, "Oh, I can write things." 

Terry: Okay, that's an easy question. You know, like most people who write, I always wanted to write. That's so boring, but it was when I was in college, and I was doing just a literature class, and really just bored with the assignments I was being [given]. I realised I don't like writing essays about old, other dead writers, and so I wrote a science fiction story instead and gave it to my teacher, and it was the craziest thing. I didn't think much of it. It was just like a four page whatever. And the next day I expected to be reprimanded; he came running down the hall at me, waving my story, and he was like, "This is so good. You have to do this; you have to write!" And I was like, "Really? Okay!" And it was literally one of those moments. I hadn't thought about doing it. I love to read. I always thought it would be really cool to write a novel. But, you know, I didn't...I think, like most people, you never think that you can do it. I mean, certainly in my household, growing up, I was taught that, no, that's for other people, that's for smarter people. That's for 'writers'. Writers are put on pedestals and it's ridiculous; it's stupid. They're just people. They're not smarter than anybody else; they're not more brilliant. But, you know, that's the way I was trained. So I didn't think I was worthy, right? But he changed my mind, and that day, I signed up for the bachelor's program at Concordia University, which was an amazing program. That place was so good, and then it was kind of off to the races. And that's where it started. So yeah, I got a big nudge, you know, from the right person. So there you go.

Jenna: I love that. I find most of us have that person or that moment for various things, and hearing about it just sparks your thoughts of how many people are out there waiting to find that person and at what point it's going to happen. So thank you for sharing about that. 

Terry: There's another side to that story. Like, it was wonderful having that person who you know, came running up to me and said, "Oh, you have to do this." But the people who made it possible weren't those people. It was literally - it's kind of weird - it's the people who said to me...can I swear on this program? *laughter* "What the f*ck are you doing? This is garbage. Stop it!" Okay, so it's all great to have the person who's shoving you out the door, but you really need those other people who are like, "Cut this crap out!" Right? So anyways, so yeah, and those are some of my other professors at Concordia University...who were great people and they meant it from...You know, it's funny to talk about people telling you those harsh things, but it's coming from a place where they want you to get better, and they want you to kind of like...wake up to what you're doing. So, yeah, I'm sure if you talk to some of my editing clients, they'll go, "Yeah, yeah, that's the way he edits!" Yeah, you know, this is like one of my clients wrote a really nice essay about how I am, and I was like, "Oh my God! Did I sound that harsh?" but one of the things I said to her was like, "Why am I reading this?"  You know? And it was from the same place, [and] you need people to say stuff like that. But anyways, long answer, short question, there you go. That's me! 

Jenna: I love it though! I think it is. It's important to have both those voices happening and listen to them both.

Terry: Oh yeah! Yeah, you have to listen to them. Ironically, sometimes when I'm working with writers, I think the voice that is hardest to listen to is when we're telling people, "No, you're doing...this is good. This is what you're supposed to be doing!" And I try to show people why it's good, why it's working, because they still have that programming. And then where it's like, Oh no, writing is for other people, you know. So that's a hard thing. It's hard to learn to kind of analyse your own work.

Jenna: What advice do you have for writers who are kind of struggling with that part right now? I think a lot of people who are going to listen to this podcast are people who are looking for inspiration, who are feeling like they're trying to get into the role of writing. How do they find those people to help push them in the right direction?

Terry: They're all around you. You know, it can be anybody. I don't know if you know who Bill Hader is. He used to be on Saturday Night Live. He wrote the amazing HBO series, Barry, and he gave some advice. I saw him on just a YouTube clip, and he said, "You can show your stuff to anybody, and they're going to tell you what you need to know. They don't have to be a writer, they don't have they don't have to have inside knowledge or whatever." And he said, "If something's wrong, they're going to tell you, and they're going to be right!" They might not be able to tell you why it's wrong, and they're always going to follow it up, especially with the people who are  not writers - even writers - they're gonna also give you the solution. And he said, "You know, when they tell you something's wrong, they're right. They won't necessarily know what it is, but it's up to you now, go, go look at it. But when they give you the solution, ignore it. They're always going to be wrong. You have to find the solution." Right? And I heard him say that on YouTube, and I shared that video with so many people, because I thought this is the best advice, because people ask me all the time, "Where do you get beta readers? who's going to read your stuff?" And I tell people, "Anybody you ask, Who agrees to read your work is a valuable reader." Right? But the thing is, you have to make sure they actually read it, because, you know, lots of people say, "Oh, yeah, I'll read your stuff," and then they don't read it.  They're useless, but the people who actually read your stuff? Listen to them, ask them questions, right? Especially the asking the questions part - I think that's a hard thing to do: "What about this? Did this work? What about that?" It's so important to ask questions about things you have doubts about, right? But you don't need paid beta readers. You know? I also hate the term, by the way, 'beta readers'. People misuse it all the time. I like 'alpha readers', but that's a whole nother thing. You can get inspiration from anybody who's willing to read it, because, for me, a really interesting thing happens when I'm listening to somebody who's read my stuff and I realise, "Wow! They actually read it," right? They didn't just kind of read and go, "Oh yeah yeah yeah. That was interesting." That person didn't read it. But when they can start mentioning specific parts in your book - in your story - and then you go, "Oh, God, connecting! That part's connecting," right? Once you have that experience with somebody who's read your stuff and really read it, and you can talk about it. They're going to tell you things about your story that you didn't even know you put in there. And that's really fascinating, right? My wife is like that. She's an amazing reader, and so I'm really lucky to have her for so many reasons, but she'll tell me information about backstories of my characters, and I'll be like, "Of course, I meant that. Of course, I planned that all along!" You know, I hadn't even thought about it, but I don't know if that really answers your question, but I think it's just important. You got to get people reading your stuff, and you got to listen to them. You have to ask questions, and you have to be willing to ask questions. Like, you know, we all have doubts, right? So if you have doubts, ask about them. Don't avoid them, right? I think a lot of people are hoping that, well, if nobody mentions it, it's okay, right? If nobody picks up on that, you know?  I mean, I'm like that. I went for years with my first novel where I kept thinking, "One day somebody's going to realise how flimsy this plot is," you know? Because there is this one moment in the story. It was like, literally strung together and nobody mentioned it for years and years and years. And then one day on Goodreads, I caught a one star review, and somebody had picked it up, and it was like, "Finally somebody saw just how stitched together this plot was," you know, so it was funny, but anyways...

Jenna: I think for a long time, writers have thought, "I need to keep this to myself until it's done. I need to perfect this before I put it out there and let someone read it." 

Terry: Keep it...yes, hang on. Keep it to yourself until it's done? Very important, but to keep it until you perfect it? Nonsense! Waste of time. So the best reason to keep it to yourself until it's done is because you're going to want to share it with people. So use that as motivation to finish your draft. But once your draft is done, start showing it to people in its rough stages. That's what I call alpha readers, right? Because, but at that point, you're not married to it. You don't even remember what you wrote. Especially if you write a 100,000 word novel and you write a draft, you don't remember what was on page 42. That's out of your mind, right? So you get somebody to read it, and they're going to pick it up, and you're going to be like, "Did I write that?" You got to flip back to the book, right? That's some really good advice, and not coming from me. That comes from a book I read by Dorothea Brandt called Becoming a Writer. And she talks about that: keep it to yourself; write it as if nobody's ever going to see it, like you're hiding it under your pillow at night, and that way you can write the secret things that you are afraid of revealing to anybody as well. So it's not just motivation to finish it. It's like you want to be honest in your writing, and you don't want to be thinking, "Oh, what if Steve reads this? Steve might get angry." Who cares? But Steve, right? He'll get used to it. But, yeah...hide it away. But perfection? Ugh! You should see me with my writing partners. Like, I literally will type all week and send it without even looking at it, and that freaks people out. When I teach my novel writing class, I get people to do that because I tell them, "If you spend the week polishing, you're not going to get anywhere." So you have to just write, send it off; don't even look at it. Move on to the next thing. 

Jenna: I think that's great advice. I love that. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what it's like to be a working writer, living in New Brunswick.

Terry: It's a great place to live and work. I moved here pretty much to write, and I was living in Vancouver at the time. And so obviously Vancouver, when I moved here, in 2008 was a way more expensive place. And so moving here was cheap. It was a lot cheaper to live here - certainly a lot cheaper than it is now. So because I was kind of done with what I was doing in Vancouver - I was a musician. I was done playing clubs and touring and doing that stuff. It was time for a change. We came here. I mean, I was in my 40s, and it was like, "Do I really want to keep doing this in my 50s? Nah." And so yeah. It's such a wonderful, inspiring area. So it's not just cheap. Culturally, it's amazing. It's very artistic here. It's a very supportive community for artists, right? And I really got that vibe when I came here, and I still get that vibe, and I love it. I love feeling like I'm part of a community of artists and writers, and that's great. So it's a great place to live and work.

Jenna: What kind of challenges are there as well? What do you think we could work on as a community to make this place better for writers?

Terry: Oh, I don't...It's funny...the challenges are very subjective. I don't see any challenges. When I moved here, one of my primary sources of income was doing graphic design. I was doing a lot of marketing work in the music industry in Vancouver. I didn't even tell people that I moved because at that time, in 2008 the internet was very established. I still had a landline, but it was an internet phone. I didn't have to change my number to work here. I didn't even tell any clients that I moved.. So I had already adopted this idea of, "We live in a world where it doesn't matter where you live to work." My clients, when I first started doing work in Vancouver, they used to come over to my place a lot, and as the years went by, nobody came by. You could deliver everything digitally, right? And so,when when I moved here, all I needed was a good internet connection. And that's still the way I am as a writer here living in New Brunswick. We live in an age where you can, on your own, distribute your work digitally to a global community of readers, so where you live has more to do with, "Where do you want to live?" Rather than, "Where do I need to be to work?" My cover designer lives in Berlin in  Germany. My editor is in Toronto. It doesn't matter where you are. We live in an age that even if you go through a third party publisher - which I will not call traditional publishers, that's a whole other thing. If you know me, you know how I feel about that: traditional publishing died in the 80s. Thank you very much. I'm sorry if I anger people by saying that, but it's true. Yeah...where was I going with that before I sidetracked my own rant? Oh yeah! We live in an age where yeah, it doesn't matter where you live.  That's what I was gonna say - for distributing your work. Even if you're a third party publisher, they're doing the same thing I'm doing. Everything's print on demand. 

Jenna: Well, and like you say, New Brunswick is a great place to live for lots of practical reasons, but also the community that's here for.

Terry: It's amazing. It's wonderful. Yeah, the people are so friendly here. So much more friendly than Vancouver. You know, it took me 15 years to make friends in Vancouver. Maybe that says more about me, I don't know.

*laughter* 

Jenna: It just says you found your people here, right? 

Terry: Exactly!

Jenna: I'd love to talk a little bit more. We touched on the fact that you have various hats and various styles of writing and things that you've done. Can you talk a little bit about the different things you've done and your journey in writing? 

Terry: Yeah, sure! It's pretty easy to explain. I started when I went to - like, I said, - Concordia to do my Bachelor's in Creative Writing. I kind of started thinking I was going to write novels, and then I discovered screenwriting and I'm very lazy. And when I discovered script writing, I was like, "Oh, my God! You write so many fewer words," and your role as the writer is so much more reduced, because they don't want you to write everything. You know, the costume designer, the director, the set designers - they want to put in all of their two cents, and you only ever put on the page what is absolutely essential to the screen, right? And I was like, "Well, this is so much easier," because you can write a screenplay in a week. A novel takes a couple months to write a draft. And so I was lazy, so I got into script writing. And right off the bat, that kind of provided - it sounds weird, but - it seems so much more open to get into. I mean, the first screenplay I ever wrote - I was so lucky. I was like, 23; I didn't know what I was doing, and I sent it off and I sold it. I sold the rights to it. It never got made, or anything like that, but I was like, "Oh, this is easy!" And turns out - it wasn't easy, because this is back in the 90s, and this was still in an age where they were very much gatekeepers. Like, if you're a writer, you couldn't just write. Now, if you're a writer, you can write and you can make a living. You don't need to listen to any of the gatekeepers. You want to put something out? You put it out. But that was then, and so even though I was kind of starting off strong. I sold the script. I got an agent - you know - things were happening, but a few years later, everything kind of stalled. I had a kind of early development deal with another film company, and that fell apart. Things were just starting to get going, and then they were falling apart, and I got really discouraged. It was only about five years into my attempt at becoming a writer, and at that point I was kind of a professional writer, right? But I was so frustrated. I remember I was sitting down to write a pitch for a Neon Rider episode - I don't expect anybody to even know what the hell that was - and it was just this stupid TV series nobody watched. Nobody cared, but it was Canadian, and I knew I could get it to the people and I was like writing it, going, "What are you doing? You hate this show. You don't want to write this. You don't want to do this." So I kind of gave up, and at the time, I was a musician as well, and music was kind of taking off for me, and I discovered in music, it's like, "Wow!"  you don't need the gatekeepers. I can be in a band. I can write songs with my wife, and we were in a band together, and we worked really well together. And people were kind of digging what we were doing. We could record, and we could produce our own records and get distribution, and in 1996 we kind of went full time doing that, and we managed to make a little kind of media empire around our band, and so we were making a living. And so I kind of gravitated to that because of the whole DIY thing and the indie movement within the arts, because I have never given a crap about getting signed to a publisher or a label. I just want to do good stuff, right? And when you sign to third party publishers, they always want to tell you what to do. And it's just like...if you know me, I'm literally just like, "I don't care!" It's just like, somebody's telling me what should be done. And it's like: yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. I'll do what I want to do. I'll go over here and do it myself. Maybe I'll make less money, but I'll be happier. So music was great, and it provided for like, 15, 18 years, just an amazing opportunity. And we got into it just totally by accident - publishing music - and because people were finding us, and that taught me a lot about marketing, and that's a whole other conversation. Because I was like, "Wow! If you make something that people like and are interested in, they are out there looking for it, and they will find it." And we kind of got found by this guy who was making these mountain biking videos and doing really well. And he put our music on the mountain biking videos, and they were getting distributed all over the world. And then people were hearing that, and other publishers started to approach us, and it kind of just went crazy. Next thing you know, we're like, every week getting a call from Sony...I don't know what part of Sony, not Sony Music, but I guess the movie division. And, they put us in so many things. It was great. So that's how that happened - just kind of fell into that. And again, at the time I was also working, because the work I was doing for our band, I was working for producers in the music industry and publishers, doing marketing stuff. So I kind of got into that whole world, if this makes any sense, until I got sick and tired and bored of it and quit. And then I was literally watching CNN in 2010 when people watched CNN. I saw this story about this writer - this young 20 something writer - sitting in a cafe. And she was just writing her books and putting them up on Amazon, andShe was selling a half a million copies. And I was just like, "What?  I have to look into this," because at the time, as a musician, you couldn't just put your music on Apple Music. You needed to go through a publisher. There were still gatekeepers for iTunes. And then I go look at Amazon, and I assumed it was the same thing. [But] it was like: no, gatekeepers, no cost, no fee. It's free, and it's working. And I did some research, and found that she wasn't alone. There were all these indie writers doing this stuff, and at the time, I was full-on into the indie movement. So it was just like, yeah, dive in, right? I didn't want to do music anymore, so what am I going to do? Go back and get a real job? Nah, screw that! I'm gonna finally learn how to write a novel, which was really hard. *laughter* So it's like, really hard. I'm not gonna tell anybody, "Man, writing is easy." Oh, I told you, script writing was easy. It is easy compared to writing a novel. Wow. So I don't know what your experience of writing novels is, but... 

Jenna: I've written a novella, and I had the same experience. I had someone reach out and ask me to help them with a script for a movie. And I was like, "I've never done this, but sure," and I did it. I was hooked exactly the same way. I'm like, "This is so much easier." 

Terry: Oh, it's great. 

Jenna: I could do this all day,

Terry: Although now the past couple years - I've been trying to get back into script writing. I'm finding it hard in the opposite way, trying to teach myself to write less. Stop putting in all the subtext. That's for the actors. The actors need to act the subtext. You can't write all the subtext. 

Jenna: Oh, yeah. There was a lot of mine that got X'ed out from the person. 

Terry: Oh yeah X-X-X What are they doing? What do we need to see? Write what we see. That's it, you know, but that's been a whole interesting kind of relearning experience, going back doing that. I'm loving it.

Jenna: Yeah, no. I think it's fascinating how versatile the world of writing is. When you stop to think of all the different avenues people go through, and how many writers touch on so many of those aspects throughout their career.

Terry: Yeah, there's so many opportunities. Yeah, it really...okay I'm going to anger some people now. It makes me so mad all the time when I go to a writing conference and there's some keynote speaker talking about how hard it is to make a living as a writer now. I'm going, "There are so many opportunities now! Stop discouraging these people. Show them all these amazing opportunities." I had a meeting with a producer last year, and then with a film company. You know what they asked me? They said, "Do you know any other writers?" you know? And then there's the whole video game world, which I know a lot of people are going to roll their eyes at, there's amazing opportunities in so many different forms of writing. And yes, video games tell amazing stories. I would have never written my series - my science fiction series - if it wasn't for the game Mass Effect, because it was such an influence on me. The story, still to this day, blows my mind: the writing, the level of writing, the scope, the characters, the plots. It's just amazing. So there's so many avenues for writers that aren't just novels or short stories, memoirs. There's so many things to do, and to experience. I hope people listening to this, who are writers, who want to be writers, are also readers - people who enjoy experiencing great stories and kind of learn that there's great stories that are being told all the time. I've become a huge fan. I'm going to admit this now nobody's going to respect me ever. They probably don't already, but I'm a massive Survivor fan as of last year.

Jenna: Oh! Interesting.

Terry: And I've become fascinated by the way they construct narratives within that show, which is, yes, a reality show, which you can look...

Jenna: It's one of the original ones though. I remember when it first came out and the first two seasons were just like, "This is the most fascinating psychological crazy," before it became so formulaic. So I'm very curious. I haven't watched in ages. Now, I'm gonna have to go see what's happening now.

Terry: This is...when I find something I like, I consume it. So there's been like, 46 seasons? I've seen them all - some of them a couple of times. Because I'm fascinated by how they break people down, and that's the lesson I took from that. It's like...so many writers struggle with the willingness to have their characters fail and break them. And that show is all about breaking people until they're just snivelling, crying, miserable, you know, "Take me out of here. Bring the helicopter! I want to get off this island!" Right? And that's why I love it. I always want to do a workshop or a class on it. And I keep mentioning it to people, and they just look at me like, "What?" 

Jenna: Oh, Sign me up. I'm in. I'm there. 

Terry: Okay!

Jenna: We're kind of coming up to the end of our time here. What haven't we touched on that you really want people to take away about writing and writing in New Brunswick?

Terry: Well, I think I've said everything I can say about New Brunswick...actually, no. I'll say this about New Brunswick. You're a writer in New Brunswick. That doesn't mean your audience is in New Brunswick, right? I did some work for a guy who was writing a book and just selling it to local shops. I was like, "Dude, like, there's a world out there of readers that want to be transported to these magical places that we create in our minds, right? And like, you need to get the book to not just people who know New Brunswick, but the people who have never been can never come." And he was kind of like, "Oh, I never thought about that," And I encounter that a lot, where New Brunswick books are marketed to New Brunswick readers. And I'm like, to me, that's a crime. That's like, no, no, no, no, no. You got to get your books out there to the people who want to read them. So, I'll throw that out there. And the other thing I want to touch on, if I can think of one thing is, don't be afraid of failure. Like I said towards the beginning. What started me was that really enthusiastic professor who ran at me and said, "You have to do this." But it's the failures in my life, in writing, you know? Well, yeah, yeah, the failure. It's a failure. Failures that if you're willing to examine them, will teach you what you need to know, and I'm going to swear again, okay, because I remember just before I gave up in the 90s, I was like, I'm never going to make it in the movie  business, but I had this meeting with an agent. She had read this movie I'd written, and she says to me, "Hey, why are you wasting my fucking time?" Right? And I was like, "What?" And the weird thing is, I hadn't come to her unsolicited. It was the movie company that brought us together, because they were like, "Oh, you need an agent. I know somebody,"  so they set up this meeting, and I was kind of like, "Really? What's going on here? I didn't ask for this meeting. What do you mean? What do you mean wasting your time?" But she looks at my script, she goes, "Nobody's gonna make this. I can't sell this. What are you doing? Nobody knows who you are. Do you know how much it would cost to make this movie? This would be, like, $150 million!" That was in, you know, 1990s money, right? And at the time, I was 26 years old. I wasn't thinking about stuff like that. I was just like, "Oh, I've got this crazy idea for a movie script." And, I love big blockbusters, so I wrote a big, crazy blockbuster about Santa Claus. Who's gonna make that? Right? You can argue now that they've done movies. Hey, Tim Allen, he did all those crazy, big budgets, but they're not going to hire me to do it, right? So that meeting changed my life, because it got me thinking outside of my own bubble for the first time, right? And I learned so much from that, and I applied that in everything I did since then. The very first time I ever got up on stage playing with my band, after three songs, we got yanked and I was 17 years old, [we] got pulled off the stage at some crappy bar. And again, that made me think. I was like, "Oh, I'm not just playing in my basement for my friends. I have a responsibility to the people I'm asking to pay attention to me," you know. And so when I write, I keep those lessons in my head, and when I write something, what I'm doing is I'm asking for people's willingness to donate their time to me, to sit and listen to my nonsense, my drivel, you know? my private passions. And, so whenever somebody reads my book or listens to my music or something like that, I'm so grateful. And, whenever I sit down and write something, all I can think about is [that] I want to do right by these people. I'm doing this for them. I'm not doing it for me, but that's what those failures taught me. It's like, "Stop. Get out of your head."If ...you just want to have fun on your own, you can do that in your bedroom or wherever, right? But you know, when you go out in public, you're doing it for them, right?

Jenna: Thank you so much for taking the time to do this, Terry.

Terry: No thank you! This was a lot of fun.

Jenna: Terry Armstrong is a writing coach, editor, musician, and one of the many talented writers who’ve led workshops for the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick. For more on upcoming events, and activities that are open to members and non-members, you can visit www.wfnb.ca/events. And if you’ve enjoyed this discussion, please leave us a review, share this with a friend, and keep listening for our final episode of Season 1 of WordCraft, coming up with poet, Sue Sinclair.

Tosh: WordCraft is a project by the nonprofit Writers' Federation of New Brunswick. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor, we acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts. The Writers' Federation of New Brunswick acknowledges that the land on which we live work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. We honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship.

Interview with Jen McGrath 

Jen’s Advice to Writers: Write, Read, and Listen to the Incredible Community of Writers in New Brunswick.

Listen on Spotify

Summary

Jenna Morton and Jennifer McGrath discuss the importance of embracing creative flexibility in writing, encouraging listeners to explore different genres and styles of writing without feeling guilty and taking advantage of the generous writing community in our region.. Jen stresses the value of not letting ego get in the way of creativity and exploring different sandboxes to foster more creativity.

They talk about the significance of children's literature in fostering creativity, processing the world, and addressing complex issues through shared experiences. They highlight the importance of relatable characters, local settings, and the emotional impact of stories on young readers, with Jen emphasising the value of landscape and nature in her own writing. Jen offers some great resources and experiences which have helped her in her own career, and encourages other regional writers to start by writing - in every genre and at every opportunity - to grow their skills and confidence.

Links and Citations

• Jen McGrath
• Writers’ in School Program (WiSP)
• Marilyn Baillie Picture Book Prize
• NBBA Alice Kitts Memorial Prize for Excellence in Picture Book Writing

Transcript

Jen: The truth of it is that if you're a writer, if you're a storyteller, you have to write and you have to tell the stories. Make them for yourself; tell them for yourself. So don't worry too too much about who's going to read it down the road. When you start worrying, that's when the writer's block happens. So worry about the art; worry about the craft first. Make something that gives you joy. 

Tosh: The voices of New Brunswick writers are the heart of WordCraft, a podcast aimed at creating community through words. WordCraft is a creation of the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick, a nonprofit organisation that helps New Brunswick writers to write, acquire skills, and showcase their talents to the world. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor. The WFNB acknowledges that the land on which we live, work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. And we honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship. We acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts.

Jenna: A love of words is often rooted in us before we even perfect our ability to speak. Children's stories hold a special place in the world of literature, and New Brunswick has its share of incredible writers in this genre. One of these is the award winning Jennifer McGrath. Jennifer is the author of the young adult books, Chocolate River Rescue and White Cave Escape. She also wrote Gadzooks the Christmas Goose, The Snow Knows, and Pugs Cause Traffic Jams. Welcome to WordCraft, Jen.

Jen: Thank you, Jenna. It is my pleasure to be here today.

Jenna: I'm so excited to have this conversation about your craft and your journey in writing, and I'd love for us to start if you can share: was there one moment where you went, "I want to grow up to be a writer. That's the job I want!" Did it start with something like that for you or start somehow else on this journey?

Jen: Well, okay, so when I was in grade two...grade two was the first book that I remember making. And it was a hand drawn stapled book about a teddy bear with a wishing stick. Go figure, I still remember that. Really, as long as I can remember, I've wanted to tell stories. I don't know why. I escaped reality - I don't know - I just always lived in the world of imagination. And it was just something I just always knew I would do, I think. And I was very, very fortunate to come from a household where stories and books were a big part of our lives. We were always being read aloud to, and even my sisters and I - we read aloud to each other and made up stories on our own as well. So it was just [that] storytelling was always part of our everyday. So I don't know if there was one moment; it just always was.

Jenna: At what point, did you start to make that transition from, "This is just who I am. I tell stories, I love stories," to actually pursuing it as a career as a published author.

Jen: When I was in university, I knew that I wanted to study English literature. And I knew very early on that I was particularly interested in literature for young people and literature for children. And this was before - because I'm ageing myself now - but it was before there were many children's literature programs or courses offered at the university level. It was still a relatively new field of academic study in that sense. And I do remember telling one of my advisors at my undergrad level that I wanted to go on and study young adult literature. And I remember that for the head tilt: "You want to do what now?" After I went that route - I did go the academic route for a while and learned a tremendous amount - but I realised at the end of the day that I really wanted to be on the creater end of things rather than the critical end of things. And I wanted to make stories so that's where I put my focus after I graduated.

Jenna: I love that. I think it's so fundamental and important to have good quality children's stories and for so long and so often people overlook that stuff but like you said, from the time you were young, stories mattered and that was what sparked your love of writing and reading. And if we don't have people who put that effort into children's books, we don't end up with adults doing it either. 

Jen: Oh, absolutely. For me, it's so foundational to everything else. It's a way of...it's how you process the world, but it's also a sanctuary. And I always tell this to everyone. I say, "Children's books are for everyone; they're for all ages" They're art, they're poetry, they're this perfect intersection of emotion distilled, and how we view the world, how we interact with the world, how we process the world - just distilled down into this really potent, wonderful thing we call children's literature. They deal with sometimes really complex issues. And other times, it's just about perception and feeling, and there's...an intimacy, I guess, to children's books, especially if they're a read aloud experience. So there's that shared connection, and I really think that is probably at the root of a lot of my motivation for writing in this particular category. Because I always think of it as that shared experience, that way of experiencing the world, or this moment, or this little journey into the imagination. So yeah!

Jenna: I wanted to ask you about that, because you went from writing books that are geared to slightly older children, so like, you know, kind of late elementary into middle school, to now writing books that are more focused on a younger crowd that is likely having it read to them. And I wanted to know a little bit about that transition and how that came about.

Jen: To start - my earliest endeavours, when I was just sort of beginning to learn my craft - my earliest endeavours were the picture book format. And I started sending them out to publishers, and I got lots of polite rejections, and that was fine. *chuckles* And then I had a wonderful editor, call me back on one of my picture book submissions, and she said, this was really - she really enjoyed it. However, it wasn't what she needed. She wasn't looking for a picture book, but did I have any books for young readers, any chapter books for young readers, and I was like, "Let me call you back in an hour." Because I mean an editor called me on the phone. So you don't say no! So I went down, and I wrote a pitch for what became Chocolate River Rescue. And that book actually was a perfect fit for me at that time, because my own children were that age level. They were the age where one was just starting to become an independent reader. The other one was still listening to read alouds that were a little bit longer. So we really were in our household in that storytelling space, which made it very much easier for me to find that voice and find that pitch and pacing for that particular story. Although I really thought when I was writing it that nobody outside of my own family would read that story. I'm still astonished! *laughter*

Jenna: Talk a little bit about what happened for people that weren't following your journey at the time. A lot has happened with that book that just kind of was Oops! in a way. 

Jen: Yes! Well, yes. It far exceeded. It went much further than I ever imagined it would. I thought it might have a very limited, very local Greater Moncton readership at most, and for some reason that little book has travelled a long way. And that's, it's still being read in schools and classrooms. And it's almost, you know, so many years later that's just - for a little local book - I'm still astonished.

Jenna: But I think it is because it's so relatable - because it's based on something that happened. And I know, personally for me, it's been a fantastic tool in our family, to be able to have something local to get my children to read that they can say, "Oh, yeah! No, our place is worth writing about." And I wondered if you could reflect a bit on that, because most of your published works are very New Brunswick based and even those that aren't, still have a real sense of community. The  that relationship to where we live,

Jen: Well, I'm so happy to hear that your own family enjoyed that book. And it comes down to the fact that young readers, they like to see themselves reflected in stories. They need to see themselves reflected in stories. And that's why, you know, it's so important to have so many voices, and storytellers in this canon of children's books that we're building, and Canada is very good at that. As far as community and a sense of place, everybody has their writing process. My stories - they always sort of start or originate from a sense of place. Landscape, and that connection to the landscape for me comes first and the story evolves out of that. And I always tell people too with Chocolate River Rescue that it's inspired by and not based on. So it's inspired by the situation of the Petitcodiac River and young people getting stranded on an ice flow. And it does follow very closely some events that happened on the river, as you know, but I took that situation, and the characters were created out of my imagination. They were younger than some of the historical events that happened on that river. And it's like - well, what if I take these characters who are in turn inspired by kids I grew up with in the area, friends of my own children who are that age and they turned into these created characters who kind of went their own way and made their own decisions and made their own choices in this particular scenario. And I just, you know, as the writer, I just tried to keep up with how that story unfolded. So it was a really good learning process for me. And probably I learned a lot as a young writer through that process. I learned a lot about the incredible freedom that being a fiction writer is and it was kind of a revelation to me that happened kind of late in the process, actually. It was a revelation to me that I could fictionalise this scenario, even though there were actual scenarios that mirrored it very, very closely,

Jenna: I feel that very deeply. I've had that same kind of starting to have that same journey with reading going, "Oh!" Because my background was in journalism, and it was very much factual. And for me to think creatively, it's a big shift, when you start to realise that you do have that power. *laughing agreement* Can you talk a little bit about shifting from writing young adult chapter books...and how you come up with a plot and a plan for that, to the books that you've been writing recently that are almost more poetry.

Jen: Picture Book writing has a special place in my heart, and it kind of is for now my go-to medium. Those stories for me - landscape, and nature is an important aspect of that - they tend to come from an emotional place as well, these stories. Which makes sense, because if you're writing for that very young target age group, emotion is first: emotion and that immediate experience of the world. So that's where those stories kind of grow out of, I just love them. *chuckles* There's something about there's something so potent about the picture book, because there are so few words, and that emotion and that immediacy, and that intimacy, and that experience of the world is so distilled, and it's so potent. And you end up with a very few, sparse number of words on the page. And this very powerful emotion, that's about. And it's magic. It's magic! It's art. And when you have that interplay with the illustrator and the art, it's just...there's so many layers. There's so many levels to play with there, so it's such a rewarding thing.

Jenna: You can see that come through in the beauty of the books and listening to them as well as looking at them. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about some of the challenges along the way for people who are listening who haven't had an editor call them back or even respond to their pitch. What are some of the things that kept you going in those times when things didn't seem like they were going to come together.

Jen: I think the best thing is that, well the truth of it is that if you're a writer, if you're a storyteller, you have to write, and you have to tell the stories. Make them for yourself; tell them for yourself. So don't worry too too much about who's going to read it down the road. When you start worrying, that's when the writer's block happens. *chuckle* So worry about the art; worry about the craft first. Make something that gives you joy. And that's what I would tell people. Always be learning, always be open to new ways of doing things, new styles to explore. But at the end of the day, write what makes you happy.  Write what you need to write in the moment. Picture books, in particular, for me, I think, are almost a form of meditation. So if I'm outside, if I'm in the woods, for example, and I experience that - I just want to connect - and they're my way of connecting with the world. And what happens when you connect very deeply with something, in my experience, other people connect with it too. So they become a little bit of a bridge between you and the world - and other people, which is another wonderful thing.

Jenna: Yeah, that is lovely. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about maybe concrete resources or opportunities that you've experienced, or that you would suggest for other people, if they're coming up and  they're having those moments of writer's block or they're trying to find their place in the world of writing. What are some of the things that have helped you or that you think would help others? 

Jen: Other writers? Absolutely. And we are so fortunate where we are in New Brunswick and Atlantic Canada, in particular, because our writer network is so warm, and so generous in their knowledge and their insights and their support, and in their encouragement, and I absolutely 100% would not be where I am in my career today, without that network. In particular, the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick. I think probably one of the most pivotal points in my career as far as in my creative writing career, would be the Writers in the School Program - the WiSP program. And at that point, I was writing a lot of poetry for kids. I was writing a lot of short stories. I was going into our local schools and my kids' schools, and just doing these presentations as a parent volunteer. And I received a lot of encouragement from Ginny Hill, who's the coordinator of Writers in the Schools, and she was probably one of my...my first fan, maybe? Certainly my first you know, she really gave me the push to keep going and the validation that what I was doing was good and a value. Yeah! So WiSP was probably one of the most foundational programs for me - for learning my craft, for learning what type of writing connects with children, for being sort of right there in the classroom. Understanding the reactions, understanding what moves kids and when engaged kids, and so that was absolutely foundational to my career, for sure, and my development as an artist, for sure. 

Jenna: I love that. I always talk about authors coming into schools as being foundational to how I ended up in journalism. Because when I was in middle school, I loved writing; I knew that I was better at English than I was at science. Even though I was okay at science, I knew it was not something I was passionate about. We had an author from the area come in and give a presentation and read from his book, and [we] had the opportunity to ask questions. I was like, "If someone wants to do this, where should they go?" And he said, "Kings University is a good place to learn writing." So I was in grade seven when I was like, "Okay, I guess that's what I'm gonna do. 

Jen: Yes! it's incredible what a single encounter - the impact that a single encounter can have. And I know another one for me that was very impactful and very influential early on, was going to a reading by Sheree Fitch. I took my kids when they were toddlers to a reading at the YMCA. And Sheree was reading some of her books, including, I believe the one she was reading was Sleeping Dragons all Around, that time. And I hung around at the end of the reading and went up and chatted, to ger after and said, "You know what I want to write. I want to do this. What you're doing right now, I want to do this." And, you know, she was always - she remains - an inspirational force for me, and I know for countless other writers. So your writer network is...it's such a wonderful resource, such a wonderful community, and a wealth of knowledge and encouragement and inspiration. And, I mean, for sure, go learn your craft, study it, read the books, read the writing books, take the courses, if you have the opportunity, do the seminars. But I always say [that] probably the most transformational impact on my career has been the inspiration and encouragement and knowledge of other writers. So go out and connect with that community, because especially our local writers' community - our New Brunswick writer community - is so generous and so forthcoming with their knowledge and support.

Jenna: I'd like to kind of wrap things up and stay on that theme of what it means to you to be a New Brunswick author who can make a living here in New Brunswick with this craft.

Jen: Absolutely. I think if you want to, quote unquote, make it as a writer, the first thing you have to do is write. The second thing is I would encourage you to be a jack of all trades. So write a little bit of everything. Write whatever comes your way. Try your hand at different genres and styles. Don't be afraid to stretch those creative muscles. Do the uninteresting jobs too, or do the - again - all the different styles: journalism, communications, corporate. I've done them all. And sometimes the bread and butter writing isn't glamorous. But wow! It really improves your writing chops. So you know, if you have to learn how to write a press release, learn how to write a really good press release. You know what? That will strengthen you as a creative writer as well. So I am a much better writer, because I have also done all the communications writing, I've done marketing writing, I've done government communications, I have done blogs I've done...you know. So be a jack of all trades. It will build your skills. And the other thing...So there's [first] write. The second thing is to read. Read everything as well. But read Canadian. Read your...read regional. Read your local publishers - what they're publishing. Read your fellow writers - what they're writing. Follow all the local awards that are out there, and just read and then listen. *chuckles* Listen to what other writers have to tell you. Learn from their experience. A big part of being a writer too is being able to let your ego go a little bit. Because you can't sort of move forward and evolve until you let some of those things go. There's a flexibility there's...you have to develop an artistic flexibility in order to strengthen those muscles, if that makes any sense at all. So listen to others, learn from their insights. Then, adapt them to your own creative vision and your own creative strengths.

Jenna: I like that - the artistic flexibility that's...you know, we don't always think about conditioning all of the parts of our craft and that's definitely a good phrase I think for us to keep in mind.

Jen: Yeah, and I think I tell people too, or I want to remind people that things are fluid and you might be writing a certain thing right now, at this stage of your life, but who you are as a writer now is going to be very different than who you are as a writer five years from now, or who you were as a writer, five years previously. So because you're informed, obviously, by what's going on in your life, your life experiences and where you are. So be gentle with yourself and your writing. So if you think, "Oh, I need to be writing YA right now." And, but maybe you really want to write picture books. That's okay. Or maybe you feel like you should be writing the great Canadian novel, but you really want to write a script for a graphic novel. Then do that. Write where you are, in the moment, and don't feel guilty about it. Don't write what you think you should. Write where you are, right now, and be proud of that. Be happy with that. Because you can only write from who you are in this moment, and that changes. That's a fluid thing. That's a fluid thing.

Jenna: I love that. I think it's very important for people to hear that and remember that it's okay to not think you're pigeon holed to be "I'm always going to be a crime writer, I'm always going to be a romance writer, I'm always going to be prose versus poetry." Be who you feel like being. Write  that.

Jen: Absolutely. And that's...it's fodder for more creativity. And it goes back to that idea we said before: it's creative flexibility. It's motivating; it's energising. So don't be afraid to play in different sandboxes. And sometimes, if a story isn't working for you, you know, because maybe you're just not writing that story in the genre it wants to be written in. So maybe you're writing a picture book, but maybe it really wants to be an early chapter book. So maybe that's the reason that it's not working. Maybe you're trying to write an adult novel, but maybe it's actually a YA, or maybe it's a graphic novel. So don't be afraid. And that's also what it comes back to the idea of don't let your ego become a barrier. So it's like, "Oh, okay, this isn't working." It's not that it's not working; I just haven't found the right medium for it yet. I haven't found the right vehicle for it yet. And then let's, let's change the shape of it.

Jenna: I think that's a great place for us to end our conversation for today. But I'm sure that we will continue this again sometime in the future. 

Jen: Oh, I hope we do. I love chatting with you, Jenna.

Jenna: Thank you so much.

Jen: Thank you.

Jenna: Jennifer McGraw is the author of several children's and young adult books, including The Snow Knows which won the Marilyn Baillie Picture Book Prize, and the (NBBA) Alice Kitts Memorial Award for Excellence in Children's Writing. If you'd like to connect with our guests and other writers across genres in New Brunswick, please head to the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick website and join the membership. Your membership includes discounts on professional development sessions, an informative newsletter with writing competitions and more highlights, discounts at retailers and access to a community of like-minded individuals working on their craft here in New Brunswick. You can find details at www.wfnb.ca And don't forget to subscribe and rate this podcast as well. We have two more episodes to come in season one of WordCraft, and we want to make sure you hear them.

Tosh: WordCraft is a project by the nonprofit Writers' Federation of New Brunswick. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor, we acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts. The Writers' Federation of New Brunswick acknowledges that the land on which we live work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. We honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship.

Interview with Len Falkenstein

Listen on Spotify 

Playwriting in New Brunswick, with a focus on passion, craft, and resources for aspiring writers.

Summary

Guest, Len Falkenstein - Director of Drama at UNB, Artistic Director of Notable Acts Theatre Company, and New Brunswick Playwright - discusses the importance of developing new plays by New Brunswick writers and the value of creating work rooted in the province's unique cultural and political environment. Falkenstein shares his insights on the future of playwriting in New Brunswick, expressing hope for continued growth and diversity in the theatre scene with more opportunities for emerging writers and a greater representation of marginalised voices, while emphasising the importance of government support and resources for the arts to ensure financial stability and continued creativity in our region.

Links and Citations

• Len Falkenstein
• Ryan Griffith
• Playwrights Atlantic Resource Centre (PARC)
• NotaBle Acts
• Playwrights Guild of Canada

Transcript

Len: Just sort of knowing that I have this thing to come back to, I think what's brought me back to it is the fact that of all the things that I do that are fulfilling career wise, writing is probably the main one. It's the most fulfilling, even though it's the one that I probably have the least time for. So it's been sort of a magnet that's  always brought me back to it.

Tosh: The voices of New Brunswick writers are the heart of WordCraft, a podcast aimed at creating community through words. WordCraft is a creation of the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick (WFNB), a nonprofit organisation that helps New Brunswick writers to write, acquire skills, and showcase their talents to the world. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor. The WFNB acknowledges that the land on which we live, work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. And we honor the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship. We acknowledge the support of the Canadian Council for the Arts.

Jenna: New Brunswick writers are standouts in every genre. So far this season, we've talked [about] fiction, nonfiction, youth, music, and now we turn our attention to the world of playwriting. I'm your WordCraft host Jenna Morton. And in this episode, you'll hear my conversation with Len Falkenstein. He's the director of drama at the University of New Brunswick, where he teaches playwriting theatre and drama. His plays have been on stages across the country, and his thoughts in journals from around the world. Len is also the artistic director with several companies, including Notable Acts, which has a mandate to develop and produce new plays by New Brunswick writers. Welcome to work craft, Len,

Len: Hello, thanks.

Jenna: I really love to start these conversations by going right back to the root of everything or the origin story as my children like to say. And I'd love it if you could share a little bit about the journey from Len, the child to Len, the professor and playwright. When did you start to realise you were a writer and turn that into a career? 

Len: Yeah! Well, I guess relatively early on. I have fond memories of, you know, recruiting my elementary school buds into doing plays that I had written back in the fourth grade or so. But I wouldn't really say that was the start of my writing career, but I guess it sort of showed that I had something in me that wanted to keep working as a writer. I started getting serious about writing in my undergrad, had a few sort of half formed projects that didn't go much of anywhere, but that, I guess, sort of planted the seeds for later things. As I got into doing more and more theatre, I got involved with shows that were happening at Fringe Festivals, particularly in Saskatoon and Edmonton. Fringes were always great seeding opportunities for so many writers, especially playwrights, obviously. At a certain point, I was acting in plays as an actor and thinking I could probably try my hand at writing a play someday. So when I got free of my PhD, I started working on my first play, which I performed at the Fringe in Edmonton, I think it was back in 1997. And it was, it was a pretty bad play, and it did terribly, which is neither here nor there. But it's one of those things you learn from experience and failure. I didn't let that experience set me back too much, and came back at it the next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, and eventually got to a point where I was producing more and more as a writer, and I've had to combine my writing with my teaching career over the many years that it's been. You know, with family commitments as well, and the fact that I run a lot of theatre companies - it's been sort of a balancing act over time. But that's kind of brought me to where I am now.

Jenna: I think that's a theme with a lot of writers, especially in Canada and in rural areas like provinces like New Brunswick, where we are a little bit smaller population and a little bit more reliant on having multiple hats to wear. Can you talk a little bit about keeping your passion for writing when you can't quite rely on it full time as your income?

Len: Yeah, it's difficult because my opportunities to write are kind of limited by the fact that I've a very busy professional life as an academic, and director. So I have to sort of take my opportunities when I get them, which are a few blessed weeks a year, usually - unless, I'm on sabbatical, which is a bit of a godsend when you're a professor. So it's always, for me, a case of having a project on the go, there's always something in the back of my mind that's kicking around something that I'm working on. In the case of my marrow or recent play, it's something that I've literally spent over five years on just kind of working away at it in the times that I could. Just knowing that I have this thing to come back to, I think what's brought me back to it is the fact that of all the things that I do that are fulfilling, career wise, writing is probably the main one. It's the most fulfilling, even though it's the one that I probably have the least time for. So it's been sort of a magnet that's always brought me back to it.

Jenna: Can you talk a little bit about what it means to be a writer living in New Brunswick? 

Len: Yes. It means in the case of being a playwright - which is my experience of being a writer specifically - well, you are certainly not entirely alone. There's definitely a community of playwrights in the province, but we're not chockablock with playwrights by any means. Although, I would say that certainly that's different from what it was when I first arrived here in 1999. I would say that I was one of a very few playwrights in the province at that time, but partially because of that, I among some other people created a company called Notable Acts Theatre Company that has a specific goal of of nurturing a playwriting culture in the province, and certainly, since then, we've seen a lot of growth among playwriting culture, and a lot of playwrights. It means having a pretty supportive environment among those of us here writing. But of course, not a lot of money. There's a good support network, both informally and also professionally in the form of Playwrights Atlantic Resource Center. It means being informed by obviously, living where we do: the social, cultural, political environment that we're in. My work is always very rooted in the here and now and what's happening, and I tend to write works that are sort of factually based and inspired by what's going on in the world around me. So New Brunswick has featured as a setting in my work since I've come here. Yeah, so there's a lot of ways in which where I live is certainly prominent to what I do. 

Jenna: I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about the importance both from the career and craft side of it, growing playwriting in this province, as well as the importance of having playwrights who are reflecting this place back to those of us who live here - whether we're writers or not,

Len: It means something when you're creating work that is rooted in the place that you're in. I remember the first few years of Notable Acts Theatre Festival, when we were staging plays that were written about and set in New Brunswick, and for the audience, just what an experience that was to hear people reference place names that were local and local characters and events and politics and just that spark of recognition. Because that was new, and it was different. And the fact that we were worthy of writing about as a province and a people just wasn't commonplace. And I think that's changed a lot too. And I think that it takes a while, in a place like this, to kind of grow into the fact that we don't have to have an inferiority complex, because we're not Southern Ontario or we're not BC or even Alberta. We do have a vibrant culture that's worth writing about. We do have things that happened here that are just as important as they are anywhere else in the world. And overcoming that somewhat limiting psychic, internalised obstacle is maybe part of the journey for most writers in this place. But yeah, I feel relatively secure in the fact that we've done some things and made some strides in the last few decades that mean that's less of an issue.

Jenna: You spend a lot of time with up and coming writers and aspiring writers, young writers. What are some of the bits of advice and maybe some of the enthusiasm maybe that you pass on to them that you could share with us?

Len: I think that some of the major things that I try to inculcate or pass on are nothing too radical that people haven't heard before. There is always value in writing what you know, and having faith in what you know, and who you are. And in trusting your instincts, and not feeling like you need to write like somebody else who's more famous, or from somewhere else. I think a lot of people can get hung up on, "If I'm a writer, it means having to sound like or set my work somewhere else that's more fashionable." Yeah, I try to steer people clear of that. Just the fact that it's hard; writing is always hard, and you need to work at it. It's not something that's going to come easily to pretty much anybody. And the fact that's, you know, you are realistically doing this not as something that's going to make your life radically different, and you're probably not going to make a living off your writing. So if you do write, it's got to be in large measure, because you enjoy it and you derive some personal satisfaction from it. You're probably going to not be the next big thing that's going to top the bestseller lists or in the case of playwriting. Well, there's not exactly a lot of really famous Canadian playwrights who even make a living at playwriting. You're doing it as a calling - as a passion project. So, yeah, I think things like that, but recognizing that when people have this need and a spark, they want to nurture that. Doing everything I can to try to encourage them and sort of sense where they're coming from and what resources they can best make use of to fulfil the type of writing that they want to do. 

Jenna: On that note, I'm wondering what are some of the resources - whether it's people or organisations or writing or  something completely different - that you draw on when you need that reminder to keep going.

Len: MmmHmm. As I mentioned earlier, PARC. The acronym stands for Playwrights Atlantic Resource Centre. It's a really fabulous organisation that is a playwright support centre that serves playwrights in New Brunswick, PEI, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland. It's headquartered in Sackville, and Halifax, and runs a lot of terrific programs that provide workshop opportunities for writers. It provides services where playwrights can be paired with a dramaturg: someone who will read their work and give them a professional crafted response to it. They will even organise readings of first drafts of plays. And it's a great way to find out about opportunities for plays. They maintain a weekly newsletter and resource of companies that are looking for scripts, contests, etc. writing retreats. So they're a great professional resource. Beyond PARC, which has a regional mandate, there's the Playwrights Guild of Canada, which functions on a national scale, to do similar sorts of things: connect writers with one another, connect writers with opportunities and run a lot of programming that has a national mandate. If I can go back to blowing [my] own horn a little bit - Notable Acts - the company that I'm Artistic Director of has a great opportunity for playwrights in this province. We run a playwriting contest every year, and we produce a festival entirely of new works every July that mainly consists of plays that were chosen through this contest. There's categories for emerging writers in the form of a high school contest, there's categories for 10 minute plays, one act plays, site specific plays. So if you're an emerging writer, our company is a really great one to get involved with. We also do have some occasional workshop opportunities, and every year we have a writer in residence, who works with our writers - not just the ones who are in the contest, but also people from the broader community. So there's a lot of great resources out there. There's a lot of great writers. Ryan Griffith, one of our finest, is somebody who is more than happy to respond to questions [and] take new writers under his wing. And he's not the only one among our professional base. So look us up! Look, PARC up. Look Ryan Griffith up. *chuckle* 

Jenna: You've obviously spent a lot of your time and your energy to help grow the community of playwrights in New Brunswick. And you say [that] you've seen that success over the last 30 years. What do you hope to see in the next 30?

Len: Well, as we continue to grow, and we've got this lovely sort of population boom thing happening in New Brunswick. It would be great for that to continue, and certainly for people to continue to be invested in theatre and interested in theatre and writing theatre. I'd love to see our current Theatre Company continue to prosper and grow and perhaps see more emerge. We're continuing to grow the diversity of our population and the multicultural nature of our population, as more and more newcomers move here. It would be great to see our theatre scene grow in that direction as well. I'd love to see more investment in our arts by our governments so that we can survive financially. And that organisations - granting organisations and theatre companies themselves - have more resources financially. These are the main directions that I'd hope things continue to move in.

Jenna: I'm wondering if you can share some final thoughts on the writing that happens now in New Brunswick, and what it says about this place?

Len: Yeah. It's great, because one of the joys of my life is that we do run this contest every year - the playwriting contest for Notable Acts - and I'm never on the jury, but I'm always the person who coordinates it. So that means I get to read all the works that are coming in. It's fantastic to see what's out there, and what people are writing about. So many works in the last decade and more that have emerged from different quarters, especially the types of voices that previously didn't have much of a voice: so much writing being done by members of the queer community; writing that's emerging from other previously marginalised groups; people who are writing about New Brunswick in new and interesting ways. Whether that's traditional naturalistic kitchen-sink kind of plays, or they're writing sci fi that's set in New Brunswick, or they're writing works that are sort of fantasy based, or they're writing murder mysteries that are set in New Brunswick, or all sorts of really cool and interesting things that break the mould and reassess what it means to live here, that sort of turn our political and cultural realities on their heads - that's always what we need at any time. So it's quite inspiring to read a lot of new work, and that's got so much to do with what the "kids these days" are *chuckle* getting up to. And seeing that, despite there being a certain homogenization of culture in the world - a certain similarity of things that's inevitable with a global culture and the spread of online culture and social media - that there are still really unique and interesting voices who are emerging from that wall of noise, to do really cool and interesting things.

Jenna: I think that's a very optimistic place for us to wrap up our conversation for today. Thank you so much.

Len: Thank you.

Jenna: Len Falkenstein is the Director of Drama at the University of New Brunswick, and our third guest on this first season of WordCraft, a podcast by the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick. On our next episode, I'll speak with children's author Jennifer McGrath. If this is your first WordCraft listening experience. Please go back and listen to my conversations with Leo LaFleur and Beth Powning and subscribe so you don't miss our upcoming guests too.

Tosh: WordCraft is a project by the nonprofit Writers' Federation of New Brunswick (WFNB). The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor. We acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts. The WFNB acknowledges that the land on which we live, work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. And we honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship.

Interview with Leo Lafleur 

Listen on Spotify

Summary

Leo LaFleur discusses the intersections of creativity and mental health with host Jenna Morton, sharing personal experiences and perspectives from his life. He emphasises the importance of creative expression and support systems in overcoming mental health challenges, and in finding and developing your creative voice. In the second part of the conversation, Leo discusses his collaborative work on multimedia projects and the value of collaboration, vulnerability, and a tremendous support system in his creative process. He also discusses the profound influence of the natural world in New Brunswick on his creative work and the importance of representing the place in his writing, art, and music.

Links and Citations

• Leo Lafleur
• The Errand
• Mark Hemmings
• Sheree Fitch
• The Paris Review
• Goose Lane
• WFNB
• ArtsNB
• Music NB
• Canada Council for the Arts
• Hillary Lad
• Chuck Teed
• Greg Hemmings: Hemmings House
• Rachel Kidd
• Sistema
• Tyler Warren Ellis

Transcript

Leo: I've actually kind of taken a little break lately from doing a lot of writing. And as you can probably tell, I'm more of a random creative person than maybe your typical writer, because I like to dabble and other things - in music and production and stuff like that. I am still hoping that I learned, you know, the every day at 7am thing or whatever, you know. *laughs* I haven't quite figured that out yet. 

Tosh: The voices of New Brunswick writers are the heart of WordCraft, a podcast aimed at creating community through words. WordCraft is a creation of the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick (WFNB), a nonprofit organisation that helps New Brunswick writers to write, acquire skills and showcase their talents to the world. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor. The WFNB acknowledges that the land on which we live, work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. And we honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship. We acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts.

Jenna: Welcome to the second episode of WordCraft - a podcast by the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick. I'm your host Jenna Morton. On this episode, we delve into the world of the mystical and musical Leo LaFleur. Leo is an award winning writer from Saint John. His critically acclaimed youth series, The Errand is on reading lists around the world, and he's working to bring it to life on stage with an orchestra very soon. He's also at work on a major landscape book in collaboration with photographer Mark Hemmings. Welcome to WordCraft, Leo, 

Leo: Thank you for having me. It is an honour to be here. 

Jenna: Oh, thank you for joining us. I'm really excited to talk about your work and your craft. But first, I always like to kind of take it right back and start with, you know, those early days and those early moments. When did you first feel like you were a writer? And when did you first really feel like the world was going to be open to accepting you as one? 

Leo: Oh, those are big questions. I first started writing songs when I was about 13, and looking back, they were pretty good, I think. You know, I didn't show anyone my songs at that time. I spent a lot of time in my room writing them, but not showing anyone. And so from there, I started a band in high school. But I still didn't show anyone my songs. And it wasn't until I hit my 30s that I started to kind of be brave and start showing people my work. But as a writer specifically, I didn't start writing until I was maybe in my late 20s (stories). And it was kind of a way to deal with mental health actually, because I had gone through some really difficult things, which is pretty common with creative people, I think. I had gone down the road of you know, kind of drugs and alcohol in high school and dealt with things. And you know, when I was in university, I was studying philosophy and great books. And I had basically a complete mental breakdown that lasted for several years. And so basically, I have to give a shout out to mental illness to kind of getting me going and thinking about writing stories, because it was catharsis for me. 

I had met this incredible counsellor; her name is Kathleen. I'm kind of diving right in right away into the deep stuff. *laughter* So yeah, and she encouraged me. You know, I would send her emails and she would say, "This is amazing!" And so I was getting that feedback. I had that person, you know, that writers need, which I hadn't had up to that point. And I had no idea that I could actually create stories in that way. I could always write songs and I knew that, but this was a new thing. And so I kind of kept doing it, and then my friend Ashley suggested I reach out to Sheree Fitch with this kind of novel I was working on. And I thought, you know, this is crazy; she's never going to respond. And of course, she responded. She read it. She hooked me up with one of her editors. That particular novel - short novel, novella - didn't end up kind of going anywhere, as far as getting published goes. The Paris Review praised it, Goose Lane praised it. But it's kind of a weird thing that's difficult to market I think. And it's really not fitting for the Paris Review, anyway. I sent it there, because I had to. So Kathleen, kind of, you know, she was my counsellor and she got me going. And then Sheree Fitch  - you know, having that, you know, this star Canadian writer say that your work is great meant a lot to me, for sure, and kind of kept me going even though I couldn't kind of publish at the time. 

Jenna: I have to say, I've read Sheree’s liner notes or you know, her blurb on your book, The Errand and she's just, you can tell how in love she is with your writing, which is just fabulous. And so I think it's so important to have those moments, though, to talk about the impact that one person can have. 

Leo: Yeah, yeah! She's a wonderful person. You know, there were many emails between us and she kind of put up with me, you know, I was still not really in a good state mentally and she was still very encouraging and very present. And that really kind of kept me going, I would say. Kathleen still - my counsellor - was kind of the most important person, but there are so many people that I'll never thank all of them because they're just...I have kind of a small list. But of course, there's the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick, who's played a role in in supporting my work, ArtsNB, Music NB because we've created two musical scores for the first two books in The Errand series, which Sheree Fitch wrote that blurb for. And Canada Council is also in on that. Hillary Lad, Chuck Teed. Greg Hemmings - the CEO of Hemming House. He reads a lot of - most of - the stuff that I create now before I kind of send it out somewhere. Family and friends of course, you know, beta readers. Yeah, so, so many things. 

But starting out with mental health stuff. You know, it really was kind of catharsis for me, and finding out that I kind of had that depth, and that I had a way to express the things that I was going through was really big for me, for sure. I was going through depression, anxiety, double depression, narcissism - all the things that creative people kind of go through often in their lives. These are common things, by the way, but you know, I have this kind of daily work that I get to do, where I get to be a part of just being present for people who are going through that. Because I had my family, I had this incredible counsellor that I found, or that found me. And without those things, you know, people end up in really, really tricky situations. And we don't think about the idea of choice. We don't think about that enough. You know, these people have no choice or if they do, it's not the same as most people. And without that supporting cast, I would have been much more of a train wreck than I was, and homeless, and, you know, kind of all those things, and so I'm very grateful for the supporting cast that I had around me.

Jenna: I think it's so important to have those conversations about the supporting cast. I love the way that you phrase that. And for me, personally, I'll share that one of the things - for me to get into the world of writing - that I did was a workshop when I was in school. And you know, an author came in and spoke to us and I was like, “Oh, how do I get to do that?” And from there on, everything kind of fell into place, because of that moment. I know you've been doing some workshops as well with students and children. And I'd love to hear a little bit about what that interaction has been like for you. 

Leo: Sure. And very cool that you got to have that moment for sure. But I really just kind of started doing workshops. So we've been kind of building this project for the Imperial Theatre, which is kind of on hold right now. There are some stage elements that haven't quite worked out the way we wanted them to. But other elements have, that we’re able to use for workshops. So we wanted to create something that had elements of film and cinema, but was still largely a book, you know. So it has musical scores that go with my words and the illustrations perfectly. 

And it's written by Rachel Kidd -  she is the director at Sistema, and she is an incredible classical musician who puts up with me. I have - I'm a musician, but I have zero training. And so I basically talk in gibberish, and she translates it. And she does it very well. I mean, she's next-level kind of creative genius, and I don't use that lightly. I don't know if I have the authority to say that, but I definitely believe that. A very brilliant player, she wrote the scores, and I had the privilege of producing them. And they go with my books, and Hemmings House has created animation for those books. 

And Tyler Warren Ellis also was an animator for those books and put everything together - he and I worked for hours. He's a nighthawk, so we weren't allowed to start until 8pm, and we would edit the illustrations with the music and the animations until three, four or five in the morning. And it was awesome. And  he's incredible too - Tyler Warren Ellis. He's a cinematographer in Saint John. He works a lot with James Mullinger and that side of things. 

So yeah, we put that together, and what I'm proud of about it is that the animations are very sparse, and the flow is very graceful - transitioning from one illustration to another - and so it allows the imagination to still breathe. And obviously, you know, you're fellow writers, so you're aware that this is a big problem in our culture, and in our society, where we're not really engaging our minds in the art that we're consuming, or the social media that we're consuming. And so I wanted…obviously, I still love film, and obviously I want that to be a part of that in my life. I'm actually thinking about..I've created a TV show, and we're going to be pitching it to Bell soon. So fingers crossed. And if Bell is listening, I hope you'll consider it. 

Jenna: I've watched the promo clip that you've done with Hemmings House about this project you're working on. And it just looks incredible. And I can't wait til you guys can finish figuring out these little pieces so that it does someday come to life for everyone. 

Leo: That actually is Tyler Warren Ellis who did that, and he was working on his own but Hemmings House is a part of the project with regards to the animation - just to give Tyler props for that. 

Jenna: Thank you for that, no, that's important work. Yeah, it is. It just - it looks so interesting. And it actually kind of leads nicely to something that I've been thinking about. This series is talking about New Brunswick and New Brunswick creators and the role kind of back and forth, what that means to be in this place, and how does it influence your work? Because a lot of people would look at what you create, and it doesn't necessarily scream, "Oh, this was made in New Brunswick!" And so I'm wondering. But at the same time, I think there's a lot of New Brunswick that influences you and what you do as well. And so I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that. 

Leo: Absolutely. So yeah, I mean, the people of New Brunswick obviously, and the nature has had a huge impact. But you're right. I mean, when I started out writing, and even with The Errand series, I wasn't like gung-ho about my home province or representing it in any way. Really. And maybe there was even something inside me that was against that, and I was still rebelling in some way and wanting to be somewhere else or wanting to be worldly or, you know, all those things that young people go through. 

And I actually started reading a lot of Steinbeck. You know, everything, everything he writes:  almost everything is based in the Salinas Valley and based around his home. And even though he spent the majority of the rest of his life in New York and other places, he was still writing about that. So I actually do write a lot about New Brunswick now. It's just not anything I've really broken through with yet. But I'm trying to publish a short story that's based in Saint John, right now. I'm getting good feedback, but no hits yet. I've recently created a book with Mark Hemmings who is a local and international photographer that's Saint John landscapes, and it's kind of poetic prose I call it - poetry. It's Saint John landscapes, but you know, with hints of the culture kind of woven in. And so, yeah, I've come to value that kind of writing a lot, and I think Steinbeck kind of influenced that for sure, and put that in my head. 

And the politics here are really, actually fascinating and easy to kind of. I mean, it's a story book in itself, right? I mean, you can't make this stuff up, so it just goes right onto the page. It's really remarkable in that way, and there are a lot of people like Sheree Fitch, and David Adams Richards, and a whole slew of other people that I would be ashamed that I don't know, so many of them, unfortunately. It's hard to keep track of everyone, but so many people have definitely influenced me. In that way, 

Jenna: You brought up the word - representation - and that idea that we don't always have to...I think sometimes we always think that we have to say a place name in our work for it to be representative of this place, but it doesn't. Just the fact that you live here and create these things make them part of this place. And I think it's really great for emerging writers and creatives to see the very different genres that you've dove into in your work already. And know that, "Oh, yeah! These things are of this place, too."

Leo: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. And no matter whether it's saying the name or not, you know, I can think of like, the example of nature that's influenced, or that had an influence in my work, and is represented. You know, like, the trees, you know, the bass woods and the elms and in the lindens - another kind of bass wood - and in the maples. They get in, and things like, that are very much from here, and the evergreens of course, too, and so many others. So stuff like that gets in, or I'm sure, within Rachel's writing of the music, even though there's obviously nothing explicitly stated, that's New Brunswick in it, I'm sure there is influence for her in the same way that kind of reached that stage. 

So I agree totally. And the same with The Errand and so for me, a big thing is nature and trying - trying…not necessarily succeeding, but trying - to give it a depth. More of an old school depth to appreciating nature in that way. You know, this is a popular theme with writers, for sure. And I feel that passionately, because I remember my childhood and how important that was to me to be outside all day, and just running through the woods in the shadows and the lights and how that had an impact on my life. So if I can inspire someone to have that feeling or want to seek out that feeling more often, or be connected to it, through the writing, then it's a huge win. So, that's a passionate thing for me. 

Jenna: I love that. Even just hearing you say those words, I'm like, "Oh, yeah! I need to get outside. I haven't been outside today.” 

Leo: I went for a walk just before this meeting. That's my safe place. *laughter*

Jenna: It's really grounding and wonderful to stop and think about how much impact our words have on the people around us, and the greater sense of community that really does exist among creative types. And I'm wondering if you could maybe give some thoughts to people who are, maybe in this moment listening to us have this discussion, because they're looking for some spark that they need - something to get them going on the next stage of what they're creating.

Leo: Learn to be okay with being hurt. That's a big learning curve for me. You know, we're sensitive people; we're creative people. I went through the mental health stuff, and I mentioned I got really good help, and I'm kind of a success story. I’m a rare success story in that way, because it's hard to find the right people to help us. And so I feel like I got through and I'm very lucky, but in the creative process, I mean, even still, there are people who will blatantly tell me that they think my work is terrible. And you have to learn to kind of protect yourself in a way, but keep your heart open at the same time. You have to accept those. I mean, Leonard Cohen famously said that there's a lot of luck involved in finding any kind of success. 

And I'm far away from any kind of large success, but there's definitely been a lot of luck in everything: my friend suggesting Sheree Fitch, you know, and her ending up writing a blurb for a book before we had a publisher that obviously helped. And, you know, these things lining up like that are lucky. There's definitely luck involved in that. And before that, I met Adam online; he was the illustrator, and I owe a lot to Adam. He was an artist of the year in all of the UK, and in the British fantasy awards. You know, he was already established, and he loved the first book in The Errand series so much that I couldn't afford to pay him the $10,000 to $15,000 minimum that it was going to cost to illustrate it. I was very poor, and still am mostly. *laughter* And so he asked his collectors to fund it, and that was a huge…like how lucky am I, you know? Like they read the story, and they're like, “Yeah, we'll get on board,” and they funded it. And  that was a huge deal for me to have that and to be working with such an incredible artist. And so another kind of layer of luck just kind of bumping into this guy online - reaching out to people. So, you know, there's that famous quote of, “Fortune favours the bold - the brave,” and I think that would be my advice. The more you are willing to embrace getting hurt and embrace kind of putting yourself out there, the luckier you might find yourself. 

Because that led to Sheree Fitch’s blurb and eventually - it was a hard road, it was like a year - we created the book ourselves. We made copies to send out, to sell a little bit. And it was maybe a year and we were basically in despair. It wasn't going to happen. And then we found a publisher. And so we've been published internationally with the first three books, and I'm working on the fourth now. 

Jenna: I love that. I didn't realise you had a fourth. That was gonna be my next question before we kind of wrap things up is, what what's coming up? What are you working on that you can share about? 

Leo: Yeah. So I am working on the fourth book slowly. And it's going to be…so the first three books are kind of very mysterious. They're kind of poetic fairy stories is what I kind of call them and there's not a lot of traditional detail. And what I wanted to create was this kind of thing that builds in mystery, and then you get rewarded with kind of more traditional detail down the road. And for some people, they love that. Kids especially love that, and it's kind of a mixed bag with adults. They open the book and they're like, “Well, how come I don't know anything about the main character?” and the books over. But there are those out there that love it, and that's the kind of idea that we've had going with it. And so the fourth book is a lot more. It's going to be probably in the 15,000 to 20,000 word range where the first three books are much less. So that's the difference, and that's kind of something I'm working on now.

I've actually kind of taken a little break lately from doing a lot of writing. And as you can probably tell, I'm more of a random creative person than maybe your typical writer, because I like to dabble and other things - in music and production and stuff like that. I am still hoping that I learn the every day at 7am thing or whatever, you know. *laughs* I haven't quite figured that out yet.

We got the grant for the third musical score for the third book, so Rachel is going to start writing and I'm going to start producing and we go through this kind of crazy email process back and forth, and then I'll go to our studio, and then we’ll talk about it. The first book, because it was kind of a new thing, it took a while to kind of lock in - months. And then for Rachel, it clicked and I was not really as necessary in the process anymore. Because, you know, she just kind of shot above me and was able to. I'm proud of the influence I get to have on it, and it's kind of this incredible, incredible thing for me, because music, and particularly score writing is so out of my league, but as a storyteller, I get to kind of inject things in and she is such a master at receiving information, and working it in. And listening! You know, she's a really good listener. So I feel very privileged to be a part of that, and she puts up with me, and that's also amazing. Because that's a thing for sure. 

So those are things I'm working on, currently. You know, working on finding publishers is also a writer's job, and also it takes up a lot of our time: sending out emails and sending out manuscripts and things like that. I'd still like to find a publisher for that novella that I wrote. I still send it out now and again. I think it's the best thing I wrote *laughter* so far. So that’s where I’m at.

Jenna: Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. 

Leo: Hey, thanks for having me. Normally, I would ask you a bazillion questions. *laughter* It's not set up that way. I really appreciate it! This is a real privilege - for a writer to be able to talk about these things and to you know, be a writer in a public setting. We love that - for good and for bad, but mostly good. So much appreciated.

Jenna: Leo LaFleur is a Saint John based author, poet, musician and more. You can find more about his acclaimed series The Errand on his website, www.leolafleur.com.

Writers love to get out from behind our desks and spend time together. And coming soon is the perfect opportunity for that: WFNB’s cosy and scaled down autumn writers’ conference, WordsFall. This is where writers from all kinds of genres from all over New Brunswick and beyond will gather in one of our beautiful rural communities for workshops, social events, and opportunities to explore the host region together. WordsFall is taking place this year (2024) in Sussex, New Brunswick from October 25 through the 27th. You can join us for the whole weekend or just for a day to connect with your community and make progress on your writing goals. There are workshops for writers of all genres and all skill levels. For more information or to register right now for your spot at WordsFall - or the next Writers’ Retreat, see our upcoming events at WFNB.ca/events. 

Coming up on the next episode of WordCraft, I'll speak with Len Falkenstein, Director of Drama at the University of New Brunswick, Artistic Director of Notable Acts Theatre Company.